Every Product & Service Will Have a Real Cost | Lubomila Jordanova | Plan A

On this week’s “Crazy Until It’s Not”, Lubomila Jordanova discusses her ‘crazy’ prediction that every product and service will have a real cost.

What does she mean by real cost?

At the moment, the price of products and services do not take into account their wider environmental and social impact. Ludomila gives the example of a t-shirt. Traditionally, elements which contribute to the final value of the garment include materials, production, transportation and distribution (to name a few). But we also need to consider ethical elements such as if the cotton fields are using environmentally friendly substances or the factory’s conditions for the workers.

Jordanova co-founded Plan A to do just that: help businesses achieve net-zero with their SaaS platform for carbon accounting, decarbonisation and ESG reporting. All in the hopes of helping these brands identify these ‘real’ costs.

In this episode, Lubomila talks about challenges around pricing environmental costs and ESG reporting, her advice for starting a new venture in the climate tech sector and why ESG is important from a financial perspective.

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Lubomila Jordanova From Plan A

My idea, which I don't find to be very crazy because until it's not exactly the title of the discussion is that every product and service will have a real cost in the near future, not even the future.

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Michael Stothard from firstminute capital

Hello and welcome to Crazy Intel. It's not a podcast about big ideas. Every episode we bring on a new guest to talk about predictions for the future, which, on the face of it, sounds a little bit crazy. I'm your host, Michael Stothard, an early stage tech investor. At first minute capital. And today I'm joined by Luba Miller Jordan over the co-founder of Plan A.

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Thank you so much for being here. Really excited to talk to you.

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Hi, Michael. Thank you so much for having me.

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Such a pleasure. Such a fan of what you're doing. And can you please can we start by can you just tell us what is plan A? What are you guys do laid out for us?

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Plan is the software as a service platform that enables businesses to decarbonize and align to policy. As you know, sustainability is a topic that have been in the back of the minds of a lot of businesses, investors and we essentially have developed a system that allows for this to be optimized, to be collaborated on, and also to really be made into an efficient process that gets you to net zero.

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Very cool. And how did it how did it come about? How did you get into it? Like, what's the what's the story? What's the story behind that?

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It's quite funny always when I tell the story because it sounds a bit ridiculous. My background is in finance. I used to be an investment banking, then I was in Venezia and moved back to London to work in fintech. And in 2016 I found myself on a holiday in Morocco. I was supposed to be learning to surf, but that did not happen within the app.

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Happening was that for a week I was cleaning beaches instead of surfing and what was my realization after this ten years was that I knew barely anything related to pollution, human impact on the planet, climate change. As a result of that. And I went back to London and I felt the need to inform myself on the side of my job and as I was digging, because I was speaking to a lot of people from academia, but also just watching documentaries, reading pop culture magazines and became evident that there's very little connection between the economy and where climate change was going to take this economy and I decided to build a company that was connecting the

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dots between the two sides.

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It's a really inspiring story because for a lot of us feel that, you know, climate is a big problem and we'd like to do something about it. We felt, oh, we're not scientists, we're non-experts. It's really cool that, you know, you educated yourself. And then about an incredibly successful company out of it.

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It felt a bit mad at the time when it was something that my life, based on the knowledge that I had gathered, was just so strong that I was okay to be naive and also a bit idealistic, thinking that as a sole founder, the woman working on climate take a topic that was not even funded at that point.

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I could be defining a way of thinking for businesses five years down the line. It feels like it was a good idea, but I think it was definitely a choice defined by all of the knowledge that I gathered within this one year that pushed me to quit my job and to be funny.

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Super cool. And before we get onto your big crazy idea, just where are you in the journey of Plan A, you say five years ago, but can you just sit it out? Where when did you start? And how many people and kind of, you know, what kind of stage you are.

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Planning is the company with over 120 employees with four across different cities in Europe, London, Munich, Berlin, Oslo, Paris. We have clients predominantly in the corporate sphere, BMW, Audi, been funded by the European Commission is also clients and they can continue listing Russian giants like Lowy utility players like Vattenfall. And at this point our product is able to on average support businesses to decarbonize between seven and 9% a year.

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We've supported thousands of reports to be created related to all these new legislative framework that you might have been hearing about. I do know you're interested in the topics. I'm sure also some of the listeners might be as well, and we are looking into making some big announcements in the coming months. But I leave this for the coming months.

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Great. Fantastic. Okay. So I think we've set we set the scene now. We'd love to know what is your big crazy idea? Your idea on the face of it sounds pretty wild and impossible, but actually might just might just happen.

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My idea, which I don't find to be very crazy because until it's not exactly in the title discussion is that every product and service will have a real cost in the near future, not even the future.

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It's every product or service in the future will have a real cost. Great. So what do you mean by that? What do you mean by the real cost?

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At the moment, the way we look into the definition of progress and success within our economy, we look at one KPI. That is the clear reference point and that is money. This is great, but it excludes a few of the elements that contribute to this final value. That is the price of a product to be aligned to reality.

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What do I mean by that? If you take a T-shirt, for example, there's so many building blocks of actually a T-shirt being produced. You have the material, you have also the production itself, the swing, you have the transportation, you have the distribution. And if, let's say also the particular company also sells through other partners, and then you have the end of the use of the product, all these different elements, curious, certain value, and they also are to be considered when the final cost is essentially created thanks to economies of scale, thanks to our capacity to become really efficient with all the production that we do, we have been ignoring some of these elements because they've

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been slipping through the cracks and that is because we've been able to optimize our production problem elsewhere in the world. Maybe the labor is cheaper. We've also had cases where, you know, the logistics are embedded into other logistics, so that doesn't even get to be accounted for to get to a point where our economy is also really prepared for the future, which means looking into topics like climate risk in topics like social and governance, values embedded into the way we put a price tag.

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We should consider all these different elements so that there's a fair distribution of resources. But also there's a fair value that is put against the product or service that all of us contribute to.

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Another two key kind of values that's being left out. Are they environmental values in the sense that the cost of this T-shirt may be £1, but there should be an extra tempi for the fact that you're putting CO2 in the air, which is going to be extremely expensive for humanity to take out the air or, you know, where when a city is destroyed, that's also very expensive.

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So that that should be factored into the price, as you maybe let's start with just the environmental and we can go into the the social value. Is that is that is that what you mean.

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It's a really valid way of looking at it. Maybe I'll just take a step back to give context to the listeners. So at the moment we have a climate crisis in our hands that is looking into defining the costs associated to how our economies are, bearing with the repercussions of climate change. We can dove into the details of why climate change and climate change came about.

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But this is a lot of, I would say, small but bad choices that we've made along the way. It's related to the way we consume, the way we recycle, the way we create waste, the way we look into also exhaust resources from certain natural environments, but then not necessarily replenish. This is what climate change stands for, and even if someone doesn't care about it, it's this actually collection of issues is starting to have repercussions in our economy.

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Only over the last few years there's been 300% increase in climate risk related costs that are being borne by insurance companies. Banks, but also businesses. What are these costs and what are they associated with? The infrastructure that gets to be destroyed because of natural disasters, is that increasing in speed and scale? It is related to the fact that there's a lot of health issues that are not accounted for because of the pollution that is happening through certain types of transportation.

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So going back to your question, yes, absolutely. All of these different elements that I mentioning need to be embedded in the way we think about the future, because then we can account for the repercussions of the choices that a business makes. Businesses are not intrinsically bad, but when until they don't have a full picture of the negative repercussions on the planet and on humanity, they cannot know how to be best prepared for the future and essentially future proof that makes them more resilient for these instabilities that we see, especially in this moment and especially in the last few months.

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But this is wildly difficult, right? I mean, and I know this is what you do and why people, you know, sign up to plan A is the accounting for things that are insanely hard to account for, but trying to price the future environmental cost of a t shirt. And whether that makes your £1 t shirt £2 or £5 or £1 one PE is insanely tricky.

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Right. How do you you know, how do you how do you see us overcoming those those challenges?

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The first starting point is definitely the recognition that we have a problem at. And I think this should never be understated because until there is not enough awareness and education across the board in the sea level, but also within a company, there is no willingness to change and there's no willingness to dove into the details. The second step is really the assessment.

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I fully agree with you that there's a lot of things that need to be taken in order for this full transparency to be created. But as a company that is now worked with thousands of companies and some of them are household names in their particular industries, we do know that there's actually not only will, but there's ways in which this is possible to be done.

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And regardless of where the pressure comes from, be it through legislation, be it to customer engagement or employee engagement on the topic, there is methodologies and there's also ways in which this can become part of the way we think about pricing the future. The final element, and I think this is where the web of impact starts making sense, is that we need to look beyond our own pots of impact and take a chance on ourselves.

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Just going to use your funds as an example. There's no problem in you setting the scene by having these kinds of conversations, but having already engagements on the topic to define the future for other funds, because they just are going to follow suit because you have brand visibility and you have a reputation for thinking and talking about the topic.

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So there's these three elements that can get us as close as possible to the topic and where it gets, I would say even more tangible is the fact that across the globe, but especially in the UK and in the EU, there is extensive amount of legislation that is coming in place that will make it impossible for a business to skip, choosing to understand the true value of their existence.

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This will come at the cost of them paying fines or them being put in the public eye in with comments about greenwashing. There's plenty of examples from fashion from the last few months even, but this process has kicked off. It's just a matter of time until it really becomes a universal way of speaking about what the true cost and the true value of a product and service is.

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It's a nice segway into just a question about what Plan A actually does. I'd love to just dig a little bit deeper into scope one, scope two, scope three. And this idea, the what the the service you guys sort of fundamentally deliver is understanding is understanding the the impact of what you're doing on a much more like supply chain the further down the supply chain global level.

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Can you say what? What do you guys do? And, you know, what are the challenges of what you do as well?

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We've been building for the last five years the software that enables businesses to gain transparency on the current impacts that is related to the choices that they make by the suppliers that they engage, by, the products that they build, by the employee policies that they have. And based off of that, we automatically prescribe a to do list that is with really practical suggestions on how a business can reduce the emissions but also reduce the negative impact altogether and kick off this process of decarbonization and improvement.

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The final bit of the product is policy alignment. Alongside these two steps that I mentioned, the regulators have been spending a lot of time on setting up new frameworks that define a certain set of KPIs that can unify the global understanding of how is the whole industry performing? How is the whole country performing? We automate the reporting on that to make sure that the businesses can really focus on what matters, which is the improvement with behind all of this.

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There's a lot of scientists. We have a quote of the planning team coming from climate data science. Half of the team is data engineers because there's a lot of data that we need to assess. We assess for some of our clients, like Apex, one of the biggest private equities in the world, millions and millions of data points on a monthly basis.

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And the rest of the team is exciting. Commercial and ops. People like me.

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And we talked a bit about the environmental value and how you integrate that into the, I guess, the cost of a product and how that might happen in the future. If, A, there's enough governments sort of policy pressure to do it, and B, if people can really understand the externalities, the environmental externalities of what they're doing, you know, thanks to people like people like planet when it comes to governance, social values, that feels to me an extra step harder because you're not dealing with money so much as value judgments about what is right in the world.

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You know, what good governance looks like, what equality looks like, and whether equality is even a good thing, which, you know, people don't you know, people don't all agree with you. These are political questions. How do you see the values? Part of value playing out in your prediction?

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At the moment, there's a massive discussion of what ESG really stands for and why these metrics bulked up together. Is it really valuable to have it? So for those of the listeners that maybe are not so familiar, so you have the environmental side of things. This is the assessment that we were speaking about related to all the waste that a business creates or the different kind of externalities related to production services that they have.

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It's also related to the policy that they have on these topics. On the social side there, we're talking about employee and how do you engage with your employee. Then also like what are the policies that you have to take care of your of your team members? But also like what is the security, health and safety also what is the demographic distribution among employees?

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And on the governance side there, the discussion goes a bit further into the health policies on corruption. Do you have anti-money laundering policies? Are you aligned to certain risk assessments for reputation and so on? So as you can see, there's a lot of topics brought up together as a lot of topics that have to be assessed. And historically, why this has even showed up as the framework that stands together was because financial institutions wanted to have a way to assess these externalities and they would just like put them in one bucket and be like, okay, let's see if this company is safe on these topics as well today as the topic of ESG has evolved,

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there's a big question mark of we're going deep into all these different elements of it. Shouldn't we decouple these topics and really focus in depth on the E, in depth on the S related to, you know, your suppliers, even like your you have child labor and so on in your supply chain and then leave governance to the side.

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What I find challenging when it comes to these topics is, first of all, the discrepancy at the moment with all the different standards we have on our platform templates and possibility for automation for all of the traditional international standards. And we also allow for custom reports to be created. So let's say a private equity or a VC wants to get the portfolio to report to them.

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You can create your own report this some funds that assess 15 KPIs for ESG, this other fund that says 500 KPIs and with this, you understand the problem of the whole discussion. There's the move towards making it all a bit more quantitative. There's a move towards like looking into the same set of thinking KPIs. Everyone and then everyone can then continue adding more and more.

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I think if you give it one or two years, there will be a lot more clarity on a selecting a few standards that we align to and everything will be a lot more quantitative because then it will allow for a lot more comparison rather than storytelling. But at this point of time, value is the bias topic, and it's defined by the preferences of the storytelling of someone.

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There's very few standards that allow for business to really compare apples and apples rather than apples and pears.

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Yeah, but it sounds like it might be coming.

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It is coming. It is coming in the in the last 12 months, there's been a bunch of initiatives that allowed for different stand the setting organizations to jointly come out with a formulation for what they believe should be the KPI. The taxonomy in the EU is an attempt to also get to this level of a universal understanding of the same KPIs for climate adaptation, for financial institutions and for companies of a certain size.

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In the UK, TCFD is another framework that is looking also into unifying that and has been adopted by Japan, Singapore and a few other countries and nations like a fairly as well. And then you also have the corporate sustainability Reporting Directive that will unify for 75% of the European economy. One report having said that and by the list that I'm listing, you can see that there still especially for larger companies like six or seven standards that they need to cover.

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So we're nowhere close to aligning with value really stands for, but at least we're starting to gather a lot of data that can get us there.

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Yeah, well, it's interesting as well as we've seen the emergence of the kind of anti ESG movement, there was an anti bank that was formed. There are anti ESG funds. You know, there's people kind of striking back against this world. I wonder if that's something that this is going to have to contend with as well.

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One of the big challenges we have on a societal level that goes a bit more at the level than just this discussion is that we have a lot of polarized perspectives that are now sitting in silos on social media, even in events, physical events, even in communities. And that really doesn't allow for constructive progress to be made on certain topics.

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I am absolutely against the and openly I've spoken about this of this whole negativity about ESG, the fact that we are not at the stage of progress. What we need to be does not mean that we have not made any relevant steps in the past. I fully agree with the fact that we need to move the standard to a format that really allows for the progress that has been made by so many different bodies, by so many different companies to be respected.

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But this thing, every single effort and saying that ESG does not stand for anything does not make sense to me. I think there's absolutely fair arguments of why it's sometimes difficult to digest all the paragraphs of storytelling that especially in the essence of G, to be found in all of these reports. But we just need to find the constructive way to move forward rather than saying that ESG should be ignored altogether.

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How do you convince companies that this stuff matters? I mean, I guess when they make the call, some of them just believe it matters. Some of them there's regulation coming and they know it matters and they just want the best help with it. But I imagine you have to do some some convincing and some selling as well. How do you do it?

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What do you say and where do you find the balance between facts and a kind of emotional resonance to convince people?

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Two years ago, the answer to this question would have been very different because legislation looked also differently. We have been supported in the development of our product by all the different statements that came out that panicked a lot of corporates and businesses of smaller sizes by getting them to think that clearly these are all of a sudden KPIs that would define the success of the company, but also would define the bottom line because there's a lot of fines associated to not aligning to these standards.

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What also has been helpful down the line has been all the reputational risk that is coming from the climate activist group. Those NGOs, those individuals, these influencers, even on TikTok that go out and chase fashion companies and go in the back of the warehouses to find like destroyed bags and then make it really public. And then big brands need to apologize and finally, there's been a lot of arguments that you can take from the employee engagements.

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There's been walkouts from a lot of the companies, but also people are choosing their next job with their values. The great resignation has been associated with a lot of people moving to jobs that involved with the purpose that they want to contribute to. So these three topics are definitely the ammunition that we use whenever we get into a conversation with a business.

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I think the final and probably most key one where I double down my efforts in augmenting what they need to work with us for, why they need to just take action on sustainability in net zero is the money element, climate risk associated costs at this point, you know, within the bank accounts or impacting the bank accounts of insurance companies, banks, but progressively they're starting to also trickle down to all the different sectors that are defining the sectors by having access to this financing, having access to this insurance.

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So when you connect the dots between CO2 and money, it's quite evident that climate risk associated costs will be heavily, heavily impacting what the agenda of the CFOs of companies are. So that's where we also need to be emphasizing on. But there's enough there's enough of arguments to use because things have changed a lot over the last few years.

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And you mentioned two years ago, I'd love just real back onto the beginning of your journey, a plan A, how did you how did you get your first customer? You know, how did it how did it how did it come about? And how hard how hard was it? How many pivots did you do? I know you did a few.

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How many how long did it take you to get to get to get to kind of semblance of the product you are now.

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Two pivots down the line. I can say that experimentation is the key part of successful company and just of having a peace of mind that you really are building something that as a product market fit. There's a lot of dangers in to raising money, but also going out and stating to the world that the only way is your way because you most likely would be failing to understand what problem you're trying to address for your customers, for your stakeholders.

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The first clients that we got were of a different sort, but not so much from the ones that we work with now. Actually, the first product of planning was a climate risk algorithm that was looking into the worst performing environmental indicators. We would assess 300,000 data points related to ocean, forest wildlife, sustainable living, sustainable energy and waste management to be able to assess for a business how the supply chain profile, the operations are going to be impacted by climate change.

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What we quickly learned was that climate risk related budgets did not exist in businesses, and through that it was really a roller coaster journey to be able to find who can pay you, who wants to work with you. If I could say who paid us first. There was Eventbrite, the event listing company. We were lucky enough to stumble upon one green champion.

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They didn't have a designated tag team. They didn't have anyone that would be officially, informally labeled as a sustainability professional within the company. But the lady that we worked with was so enthusiastic, she got a budget, she got people on board, and we were able to get that because like one was one €5,000 or something like that, very little, but enough for us to do an event with them and then run our algorithm and do an assessment of what the event industry is going to be facing.

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Therefore, Eventbrite needed to think of how to prepare its own clients. So we probably like kicked off already with like a lot of positivity and a lot of engagement on the corporate side. That doesn't mean that it's always been, you know, positive. There's been a lot of challenges down the line. And I do feel we we've been able to stay strong and also continuously committed to the bigger problem that we're addressing, which removes you from the vanity of all the successes and allows you really to be continuously committed without making any excuses that the this new press release that you're launching, this new funding round, this new partnership, is really the holy grail of what

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you aim to achieve.

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And what's your advice to young entrepreneurs who want to get into climate tech? They want to start climate tech businesses. Now, my suggestions to them would be to not start a carbon accounting business because there are now lots and there are a few there a few years late. But what what would your advice be for you now? How they should approach, you know, thinking about a new, new venture now.

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Is that we had a visit in the office from students from Duke University, M.I.T., and also Stanford, and it was really interesting to to hear their concerns about where the world is headed, because the US has a totally different dynamic of thinking about climate, at least at this point. The advice that I gave them is the one that I would give as well here.

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And that's twofold. On one hand, it's educate yourself first the amount of companies that are launching at the moment that have no backbone, backbone of understanding of the science, understanding of the human pain that is involved in climate change, but also the fundamental economic challenge that is ahead of us. It's paramount. And that is really scary because that means that we're building on greenwashing premises.

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Some businesses that due to the background maybe of the founders can get backing and can give the opportunity for someone that is coming from science that really needs to be at the forefront of defining solutions for the future. I spent one year educating myself, and I'm not saying that I'm the only one, but what this helped me do is really understand the true problem that we're trying to address.

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And as the industry was starting to develop and mature, people are now coming to us and being, Oh, you're doing decarbonization, that makes a lot more sense than offsetting. And but it took like three years until people got there and there's still people that think that offsetting is the way forward. The second suggestion, and I think it's again, something I strongly stand for, is doing all your work with your values.

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First is a defining decision making criteria we have been offered in the planning journey. There's just been some ridiculous situations where we were offered €1 million by a coal company and we asked, What do you want us to do with this money? Are you willing to change? They're like, No, no, we're just going to do a campaign and we want to use your name.

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And you're like, Well, I didn't build my name. I didn't build a plan. A The team is not committed to all of this because of you been it being able to benefit from this reputation. So making sure that your decision making criteria is based on what you know will define the future and will safeguard you from working with people that maybe are not aligned to your values.

00;33;38;07 - 00;33;55;04

That is great advice. Thank you. Thank you very much. Final question, what entrepreneur would you like to come and see on the crazy two? It's not podcast. Who's the craziest, the craziest entrepreneur. You know.

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One that has defined me a lot and also has helped me grow as an entrepreneur is Johan from Flick's Birth. He is one of the co-founders. We're lucky, funny to have him as the also investor, but is also a client for full disclosure. But what really has been incredible to watch him do, but often learn from him, is his elegance of building a company.

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His intelligence, his quirkiness, but also his constant believe that there is nothing that can stop you on your path of building a successful company. Flix is one of the most valuable companies on the German market and actually internationally they just acquired the biggest bus chain in the US and have now been able to embed demos two three weeks ago in New York and anywhere that I would look, they were the fleet busses and I was absolutely amazed how quickly they were able to create synergies with a company they just acquired a few months ago.

00;34;59;11 - 00;35;22;28

But what he has been able to do is really to show that this digitization opportunity, even in a business that you wouldn't think, who would think that busses would be the industry that would define the next big thing in the tech industry across Europe. So I would definitely be more than happy to hear what he can share with you have your SO to make the connection.

00;35;22;28 - 00;35;40;18

Fantastic. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Crazy XL. It's not I don't know about your listeners, but I'm convinced that a more values, the real value of products will come in the future. Thank you so much.

00;35;40;20 - 00;35;47;23

Thank you, Michael, so much for having me and looking forward to further discussions on the true cost.

Crazy Until It's Not: Startups, Venture Capital & Big Ideas

Every Product & Service Will Have a Real Cost | Lubomila Jordanova | Plan A | firstminute capital

Crazy Until It's Not: Startups, Venture Capital & Big Ideas

Every Product & Service Will Have a Real Cost | Lubomila Jordanova | Plan A | firstminute capital

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