Crazy Until It's Not: Startups, Venture Capital & Big Ideas
Crazy Until It's Not: Startups, Venture Capital & Big Ideas
My firstminute | Ben Lovett, Co-founder of Mumford & Sons, Communion and Venue Group | Roelof Botha, Partner Sequoia
As we wrap up 2022, we’ve looked back at firstminute capital’s first podcast “My firstminute” from 2020 and 2021.
My firstminute talked to some of the world’s top investors, founders and thought-leaders about the first minutes of their careers, some of the battles they’ve overcome and their advice on navigating the world today. When discussing ‘the world today’, many guests addressed the effects of Covid-19 as this series was recorded in the height of the pandemic. Each episode concludes with a Q&A with fellow entrepreneurs.
Today’s episode (originally recorded in March 2021) features Sequoia investor extraordinaire, Roelof Botha, known for his investments in Instagram, YouTube, MongoDB, Unity, Eventbrite, Square, 23andMe, Bird, Evernote, BridgeBio and many more; alongside Grammy Award-winning musician, producer, and two-time entrepreneur, Ben Lovett.
They discuss how entrepreneurship and creativity are intrinsically linked to one another and the role that luck and humility played in their careers.
Listen to the advice that Roelof and Ben give to budding entrepreneurs alongside how he tests for authenticity in founders and how to spot a good opportunity.
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First Minute Capital is a $250
million seed fund founded in 2017
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and proudly backed
by a number of star technology founders,
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including over 100 unicorn founders.
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The manifest miniseries is an opportunity
to talk to some of the world's
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top founders, investors and thought
leaders around how they got started.
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Some battles
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that they fought along the way
and how they think about the world today.
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Part of our DNA
at first minute is to take the wisdom
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and lessons learned from one generation
of successful entrepreneurs
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and share those lessons
with the next generation of rising stars.
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And that's really what this series,
my first minute, is about.
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My name is Spencer Crawley.
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I'm co-founder and general partner
at First Bennet Capital.
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And today I'm speaking to Rolfe Porter
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and Ben
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Lovett.
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But we're back with a bang today
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with Ben and Rohloff and the real, real
treat to have them both for an hour.
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We've control of just before us all hands
and and it's really,
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really nice to have you both.
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So Ben Rohloff,
thank you both for joining.
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Really, really appreciate it.
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And actually, the suggestion of Ben
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actually made my life very easy
by volunteering to introduce themselves.
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Ben, over to you.
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Cool.
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Yeah, I think.
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Nice to meet everyone.
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I think the context around
my life is really centered around people.
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I'm obsessed with
people have been since a young age.
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I've got three siblings, was the youngest.
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So that kind of immediately
came in to quite a
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quite large group.
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And then I always was a social
being all the way through school.
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I went to school in London
to a day school there, and then
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had a dream that I was going to be
an astrophysicist.
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Well, it's very hard at school
and I went and began that journey,
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actually started
taking my completed 20 credits at Stanford
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with a view to being an astrophysicist
one day, but
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had a major kind of
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awakening
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as one of my favorite musicians
of my life,
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a guy called Branford Marsalis,
the saxophone player.
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I was performing on
campus at Stanford, and
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and I ended up having the fortune
longer story for another day.
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But of meeting him,
you know, kind of as a spotty teenager,
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just introduced myself to him
and ended up having lunch.
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And he basically was like
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he turned my impressionable mind towards
maybe I should be doing something else
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that's a bit more emotive and a bit
more focused on my material passion,
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which is people.
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And that came down to writing
songs, expressing myself. And
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then I really wanted to make a go of it.
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So moved back to London, 18 years old.
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I kind of agreed with my,
my dad, David Lovett.
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He was
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the managing director at Arthur Andersen,
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and then he was the managing partner
for Alixpartners for a number of years.
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And we made it we cut a deal
that I would go back to university
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in five years
if I didn't sign a signed a record deal.
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So I had from 18 to 23
and during that time I had a few things
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to do, had to get some income
because he wasn't going to support this
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in terms of cash in the in the wallet
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to buy buy beers on the weekends
and stuff.
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So went out and start
getting some some day
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job work going works in warehouses mostly.
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There's some stuff in recruitment,
just whatever I could get paid to do
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and I also started a company when I was 18
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with a couple of friends, school
communion, communion music,
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which is still around today, 16 years on
as a record label publishing company.
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And it was a promotions business
and a lot of that was around
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trying to elevate folks that were kind of
on the fringes of the mainstream
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musicians who are writing songs
that you may not have obviously thought
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of as being radio hits and finding a way
to making them successful.
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So over those next couple of years,
kind of
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before Mumford Sons even became a thing,
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we had a lot of a lot of success
doing that.
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And kind of early, early
hit artists included
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people like Ben Howard and Michael
Kiwanuka and Gotye.
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You know, that was all around us or 2010
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times sales, nine and ten.
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And we had been beginning working
with those assets ahead of that.
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We got an invite as a band.
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So I started started the band
with with again, a few friends.
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Marcus and I went to school.
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We go back
since we were seven years old together
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and we decided
to have a go writing together
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and touring and and that was an amazing
kind of chemistry match.
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We had actually played together
with another band and our teens and early
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teens.
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And then,
you know, one thing led to another.
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We found ourselves out in
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in South by Southwest
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one year, I think it was 2009,
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we met a
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an incredible man called Daniel Glass
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who subsequently went on to sign the band.
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And we were working with Universal outside
of North America.
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But Daniel and his team at Glass
Night were taking care of our releases
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for for North America and still do.
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And we met Daniel that we.
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Oh, thank you as well.
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Like yeah yeah they made a connection
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and and and and so of course I'm
going with the communion.
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I moved to New York around 2011
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from London
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and in 2015
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decided to having kind of seen
a lot of the consolidation
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of the live events industry and
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a lot of the challenges for independence
in the live events industry
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decided to start a company called Venue
Group with my brother and my dad,
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which is still going today.
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And we are growing
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currently in the process of
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rolling out 12 venues
across the US and UK.
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We've had a lot of joy in London
with a couple of places,
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O'Meara and Lafayette and yeah,
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that's kind of my life in a nutshell.
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Like I said, it all comes down
to being fascinated by people.
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The journey we go
on, the emotions we feel,
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the interaction between us all
and what makes people tick.
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And that has manifested itself
into writing songs
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and putting on festivals
and building venues.
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And so when asked to have a conversation,
especially with someone
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like wrote off, I was excited
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to learn more about another human being,
which is kind of why I did it.
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Thank you
so many things we're going to come back
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through from founding things
to understanding people.
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So roll off over over to you.
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Spencer
I think we should reverse the order.
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You know,
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I think, you know, Ben, as a as an artist
understands the art of crescendo.
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I feel like I'm going to die
crescendos here. So.
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So when I was presented
with this opportunity, I jumped at it
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because I absolutely love the music
that you make.
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And many of the artists
that you've supported through Communion
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are in my lists favorite songs.
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So I really appreciate everything you do,
and you're
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sort of the quintessential Renaissance
man with this combination of intellect,
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the ability to study physics
and incredible musical talent.
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As somebody whose children
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immediately ask him
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to stop humming along to songs
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of jealousy
in the most positive sense of the word.
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So admire what you do.
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I grew up in South Africa,
so we have a collection of people here.
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Today was probably accents
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that are maybe a little bit foreign
to an American audience.
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I finished high school in 1990,
which is the year that the ANC
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was unbanned
and Nelson Mandela was released.
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As it turns out,
my grandfather was actually a prominent
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politician in South Africa
and he served in Nelson Mandela's cabinet
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after the first democratic election.
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And unfortunately, my grandmother
passed away and he retired from politics,
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but he was minister of foreign affairs,
which is sort of
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an equivalent of foreign secretary
in the United States.
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And it meant that I had this
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view of the world and an aspiration to go
and play on a bigger stage as possible.
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So I decided to become a British actuary
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when I finished high school
and I went to university.
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So I studied natural science,
economics and statistics
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and had a deep love of math.
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And then realized that
if I didn't want to be an actuary,
00:09:01:15 - 00:09:04:20
got an opportunity
to come to Stanford as well.
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And I got an MBA here in 2000.
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As it
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turns out, there was an
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emerging markets currency crisis in 1998,
and the rand that I'd saved to come
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to Stanford lost 40% of its value
literally the month before I came,
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and I didn't have enough money
to get through business school.
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And so by the time that Ellen made me
my third offer to join x dot
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com PayPal, the combined company
in March of 2000, I said, yes
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because I didn't have enough money, partly
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because I didn't have enough money to pay
rent the next month.
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And so I joined PayPal while I was at
school, helped the company, built
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its financial models, joined full time
after I graduated, became
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the CFO, took the company public
the first time it went public in 2002.
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And then eBay acquired us later that year.
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Michael Moritz,
who is one of the partners at Sequoia
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Capital, after the acquisition, asked me
if I'd interview
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because they were looking for
somebody who had a computer science degree
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who was in product management,
an enterprise software company.
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And I sort of pointed out that
I didn't meet any of the three criteria,
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but Sheryl interview
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and I left every interview thinking
it was the last interview,
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and I was surprised
that they made me an offer.
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And for years I was wondering
whether we're going to figure out
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that I wasn't the
person they were looking for.
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But it worked out in the end.
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I've been there for 18 years.
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I've invested in a variety of companies,
so I have really eclectic interests.
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So I invested in YouTube.
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The three founders of Friends of mine
from PayPal days.
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So there were literally
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just the three of them in a garage
in Menlo Park when they first started,
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and we were their first business address
and I worked with them every day
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for the first couple of months
as we got that business going
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out to invest in another social media
company, Instagram.
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With my financial services background,
I helped us invest in Square,
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where I'm still a board got involved there
over a decade ago.
00:10:49:15 - 00:10:52:28
I took a keen interest
in bioinformatics and genetics
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just after the Human Genome Project
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and invested in a company called Natera,
which is not a public company,
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and it's the leading technology
for helping people have healthy babies,
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which is
just incredible when you think about the
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you know,
when you go to the companies office
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and you see all the photographs
that people send in of of healthy babies,
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it really touches you emotionally
00:11:11:27 - 00:11:16:08
and understanding that this company
is making a huge difference in the world.
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And that led subsequently
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to our investment in 23 and me,
where I'm still on the board as well.
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And then a couple of other companies, you
know, Eventbrite in the event management
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space, MongoDB, a database company, Unity,
which is a software development tool.
00:11:29:18 - 00:11:30:11
It just
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I love learning about new businesses
and I love understanding why entrepreneurs
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do what they do, what motivates them,
and where they got their ideas.
00:11:37:27 - 00:11:41:16
I said, Well, I to use the word eclectic,
I think like then
00:11:41:17 - 00:11:45:15
your eclectic range of interest
and experience leads to pretty rich
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pickings for a conversation.
00:11:47:07 - 00:11:51:11
So why don't we tee off with that last
thought of yours rolled off?
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And you know, Ben, you obviously know
worldwide as a musician,
00:11:55:16 - 00:11:59:24
but as an entrepreneur, you're gaining
an increasingly prominent reputation.
00:11:59:24 - 00:12:04:01
What what you spoke about understanding
people as being a driver for you.
00:12:04:01 - 00:12:06:20
Does the motivation
for starting businesses
00:12:06:28 - 00:12:10:09
feel a bit like the motivation
for being a musician or what's
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what's different,
what's what's what feels the same?
00:12:13:18 - 00:12:16:12
I think entrepreneurship and creativity
are kind of
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inextricably linked, that they use
a very similar part of the brain.
00:12:21:03 - 00:12:23:07
It's just about the application right?
00:12:23:07 - 00:12:25:17
It's the creation of a
00:12:27:17 - 00:12:29:19
of a song is
00:12:30:13 - 00:12:35:05
the same as in some ways
the creation of a product package
00:12:35:12 - 00:12:37:16
or an org chart or
00:12:38:14 - 00:12:41:17
like involves
thinking of something that doesn't exist
00:12:42:10 - 00:12:47:07
and creating it and then implementing it.
00:12:47:07 - 00:12:50:00
Same with a couplet or a melody.
00:12:50:00 - 00:12:51:13
I think that
00:12:51:29 - 00:12:54:22
sort that underlies all of it for me
00:12:54:26 - 00:12:57:06
is I'm just really interested
to know why people do anything.
00:12:58:10 - 00:13:02:09
You know, we're born with no inputs,
we have instincts
00:13:02:09 - 00:13:06:26
and we go about the world
and things happen to us.
00:13:07:09 - 00:13:11:23
And a mixture between our kind of nature
and nurture leads to
00:13:13:00 - 00:13:15:01
a series of decisions
00:13:15:01 - 00:13:17:15
that we make and reactions
that we make that
00:13:18:15 - 00:13:20:22
inform an entire life.
00:13:20:22 - 00:13:24:03
And I think it's just so interesting
that kind of
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I've always liked the idea of being able
to charter of my own course.
00:13:30:11 - 00:13:31:01
Mumford & Sons
00:13:31:01 - 00:13:33:29
is a is a very independently minded bands.
00:13:34:01 - 00:13:38:07
Communion is a pretty independent record
label and promotions company.
00:13:38:07 - 00:13:40:28
Venue Group is a family business,
00:13:40:28 - 00:13:43:16
partly just out of an idea that you could
00:13:43:23 - 00:13:46:08
you could pick up and go at any point and
00:13:46:26 - 00:13:49:16
and
that adaptability
00:13:50:08 - 00:13:52:18
means that you can stay true to the idea
00:13:52:18 - 00:13:55:27
of being human.
00:13:55:27 - 00:13:57:02
Things change.
00:13:57:02 - 00:14:02:04
And sometimes there's a lag between
what's going on in the world
00:14:02:04 - 00:14:07:00
and the markets and the financial markets
especially, and what you need to be doing
00:14:08:09 - 00:14:09:08
at any given moment.
00:14:09:08 - 00:14:13:12
I'm looking forward
to having my very first child this year
00:14:13:18 - 00:14:16:18
and it would be
00:14:17:01 - 00:14:20:04
impacts of that and decisions
that I'll make around that,
00:14:20:04 - 00:14:24:26
that I weave within my course,
within my own life.
00:14:24:26 - 00:14:27:21
I encourage anyone who works.
That's not just a leadership thing.
00:14:27:21 - 00:14:33:04
That's not something
that's not a and a privilege of a CEO.
00:14:33:09 - 00:14:33:29
I think of that.
00:14:33:29 - 00:14:37:21
So a culture that can be creative
so that you empower people
00:14:37:21 - 00:14:40:27
to be true to themselves and ultimately
00:14:40:27 - 00:14:43:19
be aligned with their unique genetic code.
00:14:44:17 - 00:14:49:06
Because any time that we've tried
to standardize people into boxes
00:14:49:06 - 00:14:54:02
and stack them up into anything
that feels formulaic, I think this failed.
00:14:54:15 - 00:14:55:26
And the more time that we allow that
00:14:55:26 - 00:15:01:02
to kind of lift the lid on that,
the more exciting it gets.
00:15:01:02 - 00:15:03:16
So again, knowing that there's a,
00:15:04:18 - 00:15:04:25
you know,
00:15:04:25 - 00:15:08:11
over 100 entrepreneurs
who share that mindset, I think
00:15:08:17 - 00:15:11:26
I think that's really exciting on this
on this call today.
00:15:12:09 - 00:15:15:08
Which say and I think empowering
those around
00:15:15:25 - 00:15:19:05
us is also something
that's that we're going to come back to.
00:15:19:05 - 00:15:20:18
I think really.
00:15:20:18 - 00:15:24:19
I'm curious before we ask you about,
you know, you obsess
00:15:24:19 - 00:15:28:15
about why entrepreneurs doing things
and what personal problems that
00:15:28:21 - 00:15:30:00
that they're trying to solve.
00:15:30:00 - 00:15:34:15
But for yourself as an investor,
what the some of the thoughts
00:15:34:15 - 00:15:38:01
that that Ben shared that resonate
with why you do what you do.
00:15:38:11 - 00:15:40:11
It does it's
00:15:40:21 - 00:15:43:24
the pieces I've been thinking about
is the creator piece.
00:15:43:24 - 00:15:46:21
So an artist and an entrepreneur
in some sense of these
00:15:47:18 - 00:15:49:19
people
who create something out of nothing.
00:15:49:19 - 00:15:52:02
And this beautiful piece of music
didn't exist.
00:15:52:02 - 00:15:55:02
The software that helps
you achieve something didn't exist.
00:15:55:02 - 00:15:58:00
Somebody had an idea
and they not only had the idea,
00:15:58:10 - 00:16:01:10
but they had the energy
to turn that into something
00:16:01:18 - 00:16:04:23
and probably iterated
and failed along the way.
00:16:05:09 - 00:16:06:24
These things are not linear
and I think that
00:16:06:24 - 00:16:10:19
sometimes taken for granted that,
you know, oh, this this beautiful song
00:16:10:19 - 00:16:14:26
pops out or this beautiful poem pops out
and this beautiful company pops up.
00:16:15:07 - 00:16:16:18
It's hard work.
00:16:16:18 - 00:16:19:12
And this failure along the way
and there's, you know, all the drafts
00:16:19:12 - 00:16:22:04
that are lying on the floor
that nobody recognized.
00:16:22:04 - 00:16:27:09
I mean, when they do these images of the
the monsters and you see all the sketches
00:16:27:09 - 00:16:30:21
that were underneath that eventually led
to the beautiful painting that you see.
00:16:30:21 - 00:16:32:26
Now you realize that
it's an iterative process.
00:16:32:26 - 00:16:36:12
And so so I love that, you know,
wonderful parallels
00:16:36:12 - 00:16:39:22
me with what you've done is
communion is backing the unknown underdog.
00:16:40:14 - 00:16:42:25
Yeah the artists
that you mentioned earlier,
00:16:43:13 - 00:16:45:09
I remember the first time
I listened to Gotye.
00:16:45:09 - 00:16:48:09
And you know,
I love discovering that new artists,
00:16:48:09 - 00:16:49:29
I love being at the forefront
of being able
00:16:49:29 - 00:16:52:10
to tell my friends about a new musician
that I've discovered.
00:16:52:10 - 00:16:53:15
And to me, there's something similar
00:16:53:15 - 00:16:56:10
about discovering a company
that isn't yet a household name.
00:16:57:00 - 00:16:59:24
You know, it's wonderful
to be involved in businesses that once,
00:16:59:24 - 00:17:03:11
you know, when you invested in YouTube,
there were 9000 users for YouTube,
00:17:03:17 - 00:17:07:13
9000 registered users for a service
that today has billions of users.
00:17:07:17 - 00:17:10:14
It's wonderful to be at that inception
and to be able to help that
00:17:10:25 - 00:17:13:00
underdog realize their ambition.
00:17:13:21 - 00:17:16:11
And the last piece I'd say is imagination
is the thing that I think
00:17:16:11 - 00:17:19:26
is under underappreciated
when it comes to technology startups.
00:17:20:26 - 00:17:24:02
It's really incredible to think
about what these companies can turn into
00:17:24:02 - 00:17:27:16
if you just think long term
instead of just you know, what's going to
00:17:27:25 - 00:17:30:04
be accomplished in the next week,
the next month,
00:17:30:04 - 00:17:31:21
you see the kernel of something new.
00:17:31:21 - 00:17:33:21
Imagine
what it could be in a decade's time.
00:17:34:03 - 00:17:38:17
Because the journey of failure is
is something to be relished
00:17:38:23 - 00:17:41:12
and it's something
that you can practice as well.
00:17:41:22 - 00:17:42:06
Right.
00:17:42:06 - 00:17:44:14
So you can you can practice to love it
00:17:44:14 - 00:17:49:10
and see big things growing up for me
in my house where we had one computer
00:17:49:28 - 00:17:54:11
that we installed in the mid-nineties
that was like the home computer,
00:17:54:18 - 00:17:57:22
the password to get on
that computer was anything is possible.
00:17:57:28 - 00:18:00:07
So that basically describes my mother.
00:18:00:07 - 00:18:03:09
And then the other thing
was that as opposed to outside my bedroom,
00:18:03:26 - 00:18:06:13
which my dad,
which is sort of a growing body
00:18:06:13 - 00:18:10:21
going off into the distance and it said
success is a journey, not a destination.
00:18:11:17 - 00:18:16:01
And I think I think the Post was kind
of a mixture of both of those.
00:18:16:01 - 00:18:18:15
To your first point
right off, I think we just have to
00:18:19:20 - 00:18:22:16
you have to enjoy
00:18:22:16 - 00:18:25:18
the hardships of failure
00:18:25:18 - 00:18:28:13
and the pushbacks, and
00:18:28:18 - 00:18:31:00
because otherwise
you end up being a better winner.
00:18:31:26 - 00:18:34:19
Why even even
even if you are lucky enough to win
00:18:34:19 - 00:18:40:16
and there's not all of this stuff,
and if you haven't enjoys
00:18:40:17 - 00:18:43:08
how you got there,
then you end up feeling quite
00:18:44:09 - 00:18:45:04
discombobulated.
00:18:45:04 - 00:18:49:20
I've met I've met some people
who I'm shocked at how hollow and
00:18:50:10 - 00:18:55:25
and kind of sad that supposed riches
and victories are and fame or whatever
00:18:55:25 - 00:19:00:09
it is, because I've actually never
really kind of taken stock as they gone.
00:19:01:06 - 00:19:05:28
And I've always been aware by looking up
as you go and
00:19:06:20 - 00:19:10:01
and kind of being
okay with things not going
00:19:10:10 - 00:19:13:04
okay on any given day and going to bed
and being like that was
00:19:13:07 - 00:19:14:15
that was part of the process.
00:19:14:15 - 00:19:16:20
And has a certain amount of humility or
00:19:18:10 - 00:19:20:12
submissiveness to the process.
00:19:20:12 - 00:19:24:18
I'm thrilled that you touch on luck
because it's it's early in the week
00:19:24:18 - 00:19:28:24
watching an old interview of of roll off
to sit down for business school
00:19:28:24 - 00:19:32:10
talking about about luck and success
being both both necessary
00:19:32:19 - 00:19:35:27
sorry luck and skill rather
both being necessary for success, but
00:19:36:00 - 00:19:38:08
but not sufficient on their own.
00:19:39:01 - 00:19:42:21
Does maybe to you,
I'd love to talk about the role
00:19:42:21 - 00:19:46:23
that plays in music then,
but maybe just before that roll off
00:19:47:12 - 00:19:51:28
does for you as an investor,
you have moments in your life
00:19:51:28 - 00:19:54:05
that you look back on where you felt,
Yeah, I was.
00:19:54:05 - 00:19:55:20
I was in my decision making.
00:19:55:20 - 00:19:57:22
Super lucky with something that happened.
I don't know.
00:19:57:22 - 00:19:59:22
I picked that right,
but I didn't see that.
00:19:59:27 - 00:20:01:10
And it became a great success.
00:20:01:10 - 00:20:05:08
And and how has how is luck
played a role in your life as an investor?
00:20:05:21 - 00:20:07:02
A huge role.
00:20:07:02 - 00:20:10:07
To some extent
you have to create this serendipity.
00:20:10:07 - 00:20:13:09
So I had a sense that Silicon Valley
was an incredible place
00:20:13:19 - 00:20:14:17
sitting in South Africa.
00:20:14:17 - 00:20:18:10
I didn't know what venture capital was
when I first landed in California,
00:20:18:25 - 00:20:21:06
but I had this intuition from everything
that I've been reading,
00:20:21:06 - 00:20:25:26
that there was something special happening
with new company creation and changing
00:20:25:26 - 00:20:28:28
the future here in the epicenter
of technology in the Bay Area.
00:20:28:28 - 00:20:29:11
And so
00:20:30:12 - 00:20:31:17
I was smart enough to get here.
00:20:31:17 - 00:20:33:09
I didn't know where it would lead.
00:20:33:09 - 00:20:35:13
And so I often encouraged
people earlier in their career,
00:20:35:13 - 00:20:40:00
put yourself in a position to be lucky,
open up doors of possibilities.
00:20:40:16 - 00:20:43:12
The worst thing to do is to close
the options that are available to you.
00:20:43:16 - 00:20:45:18
And if you take a well-trodden path,
you know
00:20:45:19 - 00:20:47:21
you're never going to do anything
unusual or special.
00:20:48:00 - 00:20:51:18
So take that chance, take that meeting,
you know, whether it was,
00:20:51:29 - 00:20:55:08
you know, one of my classmates at Stanford
who introduced me to Elon,
00:20:55:24 - 00:20:58:26
and I was interested in the intersection
of financial services and technology.
00:20:58:26 - 00:21:02:27
But serendipitously
there was this Australian friend of mine.
00:21:02:27 - 00:21:04:05
We were on the rugby team together
00:21:04:05 - 00:21:06:20
at the business school
and he said, Oh, I met this guy.
00:21:06:20 - 00:21:09:13
Elon is starting a fintech company,
you should go meet him.
00:21:09:13 - 00:21:11:11
And that's how that introduction happened.
00:21:11:11 - 00:21:12:24
And I was willing to take the chance.
00:21:12:24 - 00:21:17:25
I think being willing to put yourself out
there and being willing to look stupid.
00:21:17:25 - 00:21:21:00
Sometimes I think too often
people are trapped
00:21:21:00 - 00:21:23:07
by fear, the fear of failure.
00:21:24:01 - 00:21:26:27
And everybody who's been successful
has had so many failures.
00:21:26:27 - 00:21:30:28
You know, Max Levchin, who is the
co-founder of PayPal, was bankrupt twice
00:21:32:01 - 00:21:34:11
to failed companies before he
started Paypal
00:21:34:11 - 00:21:35:08
00:21:35:09 - 00:21:38:12
And instead of being tail between his legs
and giving up, he just persevered.
00:21:38:12 - 00:21:40:20
And, you know,
you had lots of other great ideas.
00:21:40:20 - 00:21:42:24
And the next one was a huge success.
00:21:42:24 - 00:21:45:11
And he's another huge success
now with a company called Affirm.
00:21:45:11 - 00:21:48:13
So you just, you know,
take another at bat.
00:21:48:13 - 00:21:50:01
Just take another chance.
00:21:50:01 - 00:21:52:00
We've got Nelly listening in our mind.
00:21:52:00 - 00:21:54:19
She's been a previous superstar
guest with with Max.
00:21:54:19 - 00:21:56:15
So we might we might turn it in any later.
00:21:56:15 - 00:21:59:10
But and Ben, to go to your father's
poster of
00:21:59:12 - 00:22:03:04
of of success, being that that journey
rather than the outcome,
00:22:03:15 - 00:22:06:22
does it does your journey feel
nonlinear to use lost?
00:22:07:10 - 00:22:11:18
Does it does it feel like a bumpy ride
and a wonderful way?
00:22:11:18 - 00:22:13:07
Yeah, definitely. And
00:22:15:01 - 00:22:16:05
today I'm
00:22:16:05 - 00:22:18:26
happy that it didn't work out the way
I hoped it was.
00:22:19:14 - 00:22:22:14
You know, I went through a
00:22:22:25 - 00:22:24:10
very library
00:22:24:10 - 00:22:27:13
divorce in 2015
and it was one of those life
00:22:27:13 - 00:22:32:08
changing moments where I saw kind of a
50 year plan crumble before my eyes.
00:22:32:26 - 00:22:37:04
And at the time I thought, Wow, that's it.
00:22:37:04 - 00:22:41:15
Everything I do from here is going
to be kind of the B version of the planet,
00:22:43:01 - 00:22:44:15
which couldn't have been more wrong.
00:22:44:15 - 00:22:49:05
Like every time that's something major,
you know, nothing's been as major as that.
00:22:49:10 - 00:22:52:20
Anything that's been a major setback
or failure in my life
00:22:53:09 - 00:22:57:01
that I kind of
have now learned to be somewhat
00:22:57:03 - 00:23:01:15
okay and happy
with the idea that that I was I was wrong.
00:23:02:03 - 00:23:05:11
That was not the way that was
not the formula, that was not there.
00:23:06:00 - 00:23:09:25
That was not the content of the approach
or the plan that was the right
00:23:10:15 - 00:23:11:10
the right path.
00:23:12:10 - 00:23:13:14
But you can't dwell on it.
00:23:13:14 - 00:23:14:01
And I
00:23:14:01 - 00:23:15:22
it certainly hasn't made me more famous,
00:23:15:22 - 00:23:18:05
but if anything, it's made me more
reckless.
00:23:18:05 - 00:23:20:02
More reckless and more up for the risk.
00:23:20:02 - 00:23:24:11
And and I do know people who I lost,
00:23:25:18 - 00:23:27:20
friends and colleagues and people
00:23:27:20 - 00:23:32:00
who are very much paralyzed by fear.
00:23:32:00 - 00:23:36:18
And I just think of the reality
that we don't get to choose when we don't
00:23:37:29 - 00:23:39:28
in the sense that,
00:23:40:01 - 00:23:43:17
you know, this idea of
I guess it's more like, I can't do that.
00:23:43:20 - 00:23:47:15
I can't I can't risk what I have right now
and trying to save up for this.
00:23:47:15 - 00:23:53:05
And that's all assuming that you have
some sort of control over your time period
00:23:53:06 - 00:23:56:20
and what your actual lifespan is
going to be and what's going to happen.
00:23:56:27 - 00:23:59:00
You know, I think that it's
00:24:00:10 - 00:24:02:00
that life is very short,
00:24:02:00 - 00:24:05:08
even if you're lucky enough
to kind of clocked up the oxygen area,
00:24:06:11 - 00:24:10:02
you know, the for the four innings.
00:24:10:02 - 00:24:13:08
But and I just think we need to
we need to be
00:24:13:08 - 00:24:16:23
we need to embrace the idea
that that is many different chapters
00:24:16:23 - 00:24:20:02
and potentially even different novels
within our within our life
00:24:20:02 - 00:24:23:20
to be able to just have a go,
it could be a complete success.
00:24:23:26 - 00:24:25:27
It could be a failure, could be whatever.
00:24:25:27 - 00:24:28:27
And then you just sort of
dust yourself off and you go again, I love
00:24:28:27 - 00:24:32:24
how many lives and I wrote was a great
example of this obviously is on is
00:24:33:02 - 00:24:35:17
is enjoying and many life life
00:24:37:11 - 00:24:39:11
and I hope to do the same
00:24:39:11 - 00:24:42:23
in any way to really move on to that next
life is to
00:24:42:27 - 00:24:46:16
to have a proper full 100%
engagement in your current one.
00:24:47:16 - 00:24:50:01
Also sounds like your cut out for seed
investing as well.
00:24:50:15 - 00:24:52:26
So I hope you write off.
00:24:53:02 - 00:24:54:02
On that theme.
00:24:54:02 - 00:24:57:17
I'm trying to think about the precise
code, but Picasso said something about how
00:24:58:16 - 00:24:59:07
to learn to paint.
00:24:59:07 - 00:25:01:27
You almost have to go back
to being a child,
00:25:01:27 - 00:25:04:05
and as we grow older,
we become so inhibited.
00:25:04:28 - 00:25:08:01
And there's something to me about
and I tell this to young team members
00:25:08:01 - 00:25:09:27
who join us at Square,
you need to maintain
00:25:09:27 - 00:25:13:21
a certain sense of naivete, a willingness
to believe, a willingness to dream.
00:25:14:14 - 00:25:16:26
And that's what can unlock
really special achievements.
00:25:16:26 - 00:25:20:00
But as soon as you become trapped
and cloistered in your own
00:25:20:00 - 00:25:22:16
phobias, that's
when you just end up with mediocrity.
00:25:23:10 - 00:25:24:11
So think like a child.
00:25:24:11 - 00:25:27:08
Just don't become a curmudgeon at the.
00:25:27:28 - 00:25:30:25
A quick Google suggests
every child is an artist.
00:25:30:25 - 00:25:35:24
The problem is how to remain an artist
once he grows up.
00:25:35:24 - 00:25:38:20
I think for everyone listening,
it's pretty self-evident
00:25:38:20 - 00:25:43:09
how self-aware you both are
and how thoughtful you both are.
00:25:44:14 - 00:25:47:07
How you both plan your your lives
and your businesses
00:25:47:07 - 00:25:52:03
you both spoke to, to jumping forward
five, ten, 15 years and looking back
00:25:53:01 - 00:25:55:09
maybe to start with, you roll off
00:25:55:09 - 00:25:58:09
because you do it both for Sequoia, but
you also do it for your portfolio funders.
00:25:58:27 - 00:26:02:02
Could you maybe share some insight
of how you do that?
00:26:02:02 - 00:26:05:21
And, and,
and what what comes from it? Sure.
00:26:05:21 - 00:26:08:11
So like I mentioned,
I'm still on the board at Square.
00:26:08:24 - 00:26:11:28
We we invested very early,
you know, in just a very small company.
00:26:11:28 - 00:26:16:08
And Larry Summers joined the board,
the former US Treasury secretary,
00:26:16:19 - 00:26:20:18
and he gave us a fabulous exercise
for offsite event, which was to do a pre
00:26:20:19 - 00:26:24:00
mortem and a pre parade.
00:26:24:00 - 00:26:25:15
And what we ended up doing was
00:26:26:16 - 00:26:28:29
forcing the company
to think about five years from now,
00:26:29:03 - 00:26:33:16
you're wonderfully successful,
you've achieved everything you imagine.
00:26:33:16 - 00:26:36:20
Write the script for how that occurred.
00:26:36:20 - 00:26:38:21
And then conversely,
imagine it's five years now
00:26:38:21 - 00:26:40:24
and you didn't
live up to those expectations.
00:26:40:24 - 00:26:43:01
In fact, it's been a miserable failure.
00:26:43:01 - 00:26:44:29
What might have led to that?
00:26:44:29 - 00:26:46:09
And we apply this in our companies.
00:26:46:09 - 00:26:47:28
We applied to ourselves at Sequoia.
00:26:47:28 - 00:26:51:01
We had an offsite and you know, the slides
we had to fill out
00:26:51:01 - 00:26:53:27
was 20, 30 obituary for Sequoia.
00:26:54:11 - 00:26:56:03
What went wrong?
00:26:56:03 - 00:26:59:25
And it is an incredible way to focus
your mind on the first order issues
00:26:59:25 - 00:27:01:28
because there's so many things
that distract you every day
00:27:02:05 - 00:27:03:19
as you build your company
00:27:03:19 - 00:27:06:23
and not to trivialize those,
those are important decisions.
00:27:07:08 - 00:27:09:20
But there are a couple
of crucible decisions
00:27:10:09 - 00:27:12:23
that really determine
the ultimate outcome of your company.
00:27:12:23 - 00:27:15:22
And it's very, very important for you
as a founder to focus
00:27:15:22 - 00:27:17:28
on those crucible issues
and to get them right.
00:27:18:16 - 00:27:21:24
It's like, well, everyone I think
every early stage fund is got a free
00:27:22:07 - 00:27:26:04
Sequoia portfolio support less than three
more times than pre parades.
00:27:26:22 - 00:27:30:01
So I don't know first minute
might still that role a caveat
00:27:30:24 - 00:27:32:18
and now what about you and.
00:27:32:18 - 00:27:36:21
Way that's that's part of the beauty
of ideas ideas are so wonderful to share
00:27:37:24 - 00:27:38:28
right it doesn't cost
00:27:38:28 - 00:27:41:28
me anything to share an idea like that
just like I can learn from you.
00:27:41:28 - 00:27:44:28
And that's, you know, part of what's
wonderful about the ecosystem of giving in
00:27:44:28 - 00:27:47:17
Silicon Valley is that ideas flourish.
00:27:47:28 - 00:27:49:28
I was listening to your Bloomberg
interview last week
00:27:49:28 - 00:27:52:28
about the Sequoia memo,
and it's that spirit of sharing,
00:27:53:20 - 00:27:57:10
I feel is part of, at least
as an outsider, feels part of your DNA.
00:27:57:14 - 00:28:00:24
If then what about you in terms of how
00:28:01:21 - 00:28:04:23
how your behavior is sort of shaped by
00:28:06:06 - 00:28:08:03
your evidence, self-awareness?
00:28:08:03 - 00:28:09:02
I think
00:28:09:25 - 00:28:12:21
it's interesting because part of me
00:28:12:21 - 00:28:15:25
challenges the five year,
because five years is a very long time.
00:28:17:16 - 00:28:19:05
And I do.
00:28:19:05 - 00:28:22:01
I do wonder
and some of my own experiences have been
00:28:22:01 - 00:28:25:19
what a difference a year can make
and what essence two years to make.
00:28:25:19 - 00:28:29:13
And people sometimes can almost like that
five falls events
00:28:29:13 - 00:28:31:25
that trapping us talking about
in terms of planning
00:28:32:13 - 00:28:35:17
you know there's probably lots of pre
grades
00:28:35:18 - 00:28:38:10
and pre mortems to be done
within the five year window as well.
00:28:38:28 - 00:28:42:26
But then I'm going to be
more confusingly critical
00:28:43:05 - 00:28:46:29
and say that something that drives
me on is kind of
00:28:46:29 - 00:28:50:24
what would they say about my life
might have been spent on when I'm gone?
00:28:50:24 - 00:28:53:06
So I actually look at my eulogy.
00:28:53:06 - 00:28:57:19
I think about it probably morbidly too
much and wonder when that time does come
00:28:58:01 - 00:29:01:07
and I don't get to choose
when that's going to be, how I live.
00:29:01:07 - 00:29:05:29
Well, you know,
will my family be proud of me?
00:29:05:29 - 00:29:09:08
Will my dependants among
my my loved ones, will they
00:29:10:12 - 00:29:12:17
say that I was there for them,
supported them?
00:29:12:17 - 00:29:16:27
Well, the industry that I work in
say that I did something that contributed
00:29:16:27 - 00:29:17:14
towards it.
00:29:17:14 - 00:29:19:23
While a rather than a golf course.
00:29:21:06 - 00:29:23:11
Will there be strangers
00:29:23:11 - 00:29:26:00
who benefit since, you know, philanthropy
00:29:26:27 - 00:29:29:03
is some sort of and kind of
00:29:30:27 - 00:29:34:03
I'd like to suggest
that somewhat of a study of concepts
00:29:34:07 - 00:29:37:07
within conversations like this,
because it's seen as virtue signaling,
00:29:38:04 - 00:29:40:07
but it's not there's something incredibly
00:29:42:06 - 00:29:44:15
beautiful,
especially if you think about a eulogy
00:29:44:15 - 00:29:49:28
where your life can benefit
at least one of us, if not many more.
00:29:49:28 - 00:29:54:09
And if everyone had that approach
than then we wouldn't be dealing
00:29:54:09 - 00:29:58:01
with the problems that we're dealing
with, with the MDGs and all of that.
00:29:58:01 - 00:30:01:14
So I do
I do think about paying for it a lot.
00:30:02:01 - 00:30:06:10
I do think about creating frameworks
where I can be present if people around me
00:30:07:05 - 00:30:13:03
wash my face, people
I tends to relationships.
00:30:13:03 - 00:30:16:06
And it's hard
as this is a process that and it keeps me
00:30:16:13 - 00:30:18:00
this all gets me out of bed
in the morning.
00:30:18:00 - 00:30:20:26
That being present
and that intent resonates a lot.
00:30:20:27 - 00:30:24:25
Actually, I made a pact with my mum
a few years ago saying that's,
00:30:25:00 - 00:30:27:19
you know,
let's not wait until one of us is pegged
00:30:28:07 - 00:30:30:20
for the nicest things
we say about each other to be in a eulogy
00:30:30:20 - 00:30:34:25
and to start thinking of everything
as wholesomely as fulsomely as possible.
00:30:34:25 - 00:30:35:21
While we're also here
00:30:36:26 - 00:30:38:07
maybe to shift
00:30:38:07 - 00:30:42:21
gears a little bit, when you're investing,
what do you invest in?
00:30:42:21 - 00:30:44:24
Do do tech investing?
00:30:44:24 - 00:30:47:23
How does how does it
lots of lots of people,
00:30:47:23 - 00:30:50:15
I'm sure would love to know
how you how you think about that.
00:30:50:28 - 00:30:55:01
I've invested a bunch of stuff
I think similar to what an this
00:30:55:01 - 00:30:58:15
normally starts with fascination
about the why
00:30:59:01 - 00:31:01:15
the entrepreneur
and what's what's made them tick
00:31:02:21 - 00:31:06:08
sometimes more so than even what
they've figured out this time around.
00:31:06:08 - 00:31:10:08
I like to sometimes
just kind of jump in with people who what
00:31:10:17 - 00:31:14:00
I just believe in.
00:31:14:00 - 00:31:20:19
I've done various things
and then I like the social platform.
00:31:20:19 - 00:31:23:29
The fashion company is a great menswear
00:31:24:00 - 00:31:27:10
company called Lestrange Strange.
00:31:27:10 - 00:31:31:23
I supported a few years ago
and I just got names in equities, fastest
00:31:31:23 - 00:31:35:02
growing companies as the second fastest
growing fashion brand out of the UK.
00:31:35:20 - 00:31:37:29
So that I'm very proud of them.
00:31:37:29 - 00:31:39:28
I definitely don't do it for my
00:31:41:09 - 00:31:44:05
I do it all pretty pretty quietly
I don't know that's
00:31:44:09 - 00:31:46:07
probably the irony for
am I ever talk about
00:31:46:07 - 00:31:49:08
investing in companies
given the nature of that audience?
00:31:49:08 - 00:31:54:14
But generally speaking, I like to kind of
elevate the people whose idea
00:31:54:14 - 00:31:58:13
it was rather than be the person
who theoretically helped them grow.
00:31:59:13 - 00:32:01:22
But I, I sit through maybe
00:32:02:16 - 00:32:05:08
currently I'd say four calls a week
00:32:05:09 - 00:32:08:14
as well as best friends of my advisor
00:32:09:11 - 00:32:12:15
sister
and give my give my $0.02 and my feedback.
00:32:12:23 - 00:32:14:26
And it's normally just a slightly less
00:32:14:26 - 00:32:19:20
male point of view, but suits go down
well and I enjoy it.
00:32:19:28 - 00:32:23:05
And then on the other side, obviously been
investing for years and record
00:32:24:10 - 00:32:27:24
companies at the end of the day,
you invest in the careers and the catalogs
00:32:27:24 - 00:32:28:16
of artists
00:32:29:16 - 00:32:30:09
sometimes before
00:32:30:09 - 00:32:34:02
they've even written the songs,
and you're not trapped
00:32:34:02 - 00:32:37:13
and you grow with them
and there's lots of risk involved in that
00:32:38:07 - 00:32:42:14
and have had some successes
and some failures during that.
00:32:42:22 - 00:32:45:25
But yeah, you know,
I think the thing investment
00:32:47:18 - 00:32:49:16
is all around us
in lots of different ways.
00:32:49:16 - 00:32:52:18
And I've, I've done my, my fair share,
but nothing
00:32:52:18 - 00:32:55:05
like what you guys do
is professional investors.
00:32:55:26 - 00:32:58:07
Yeah, write ups is slightly different
league having backed
00:32:58:14 - 00:33:02:07
a few totemic businesses in the last
few decades, we've just got started.
00:33:02:07 - 00:33:03:25
But right off, what's your killer tip for?
00:33:03:25 - 00:33:07:18
BET on as he as he does it's four pitches
a week what would what would you say?
00:33:07:18 - 00:33:11:04
Don't forget X.
00:33:11:04 - 00:33:13:18
You mean as he's evaluating an idea.
00:33:13:18 - 00:33:14:20
Exactly. Exactly.
00:33:14:20 - 00:33:14:29
So I think.
00:33:14:29 - 00:33:17:29
Part of the skill that you've developed
is understanding people.
00:33:17:29 - 00:33:21:23
So if you can spot artists
sort of understanding the individual
00:33:22:09 - 00:33:25:19
and not judging them
in a sort of judgmental sense,
00:33:25:19 - 00:33:28:07
just sort of evaluating them,
I think is an a very important
00:33:28:07 - 00:33:31:08
skill for a startup company
because you're backing the founders,
00:33:31:26 - 00:33:36:17
but you don't have years of financials
and proven business models.
00:33:36:17 - 00:33:38:10
You're backing people.
00:33:38:10 - 00:33:40:11
It's a people business
at the end of the day,
00:33:41:04 - 00:33:43:19
and you have to win their confidence
and you have to believe in them.
00:33:43:19 - 00:33:47:02
You have to believe in their idea,
and that they have the stamina
00:33:47:19 - 00:33:51:03
to persevere and go through the challenges
of building a company
00:33:51:03 - 00:33:52:16
because it's not open to the right.
00:33:53:20 - 00:33:56:05
It's a rollercoaster
ride with tremendous setbacks,
00:33:56:05 - 00:33:59:29
and it might seem glamorous to be,
as thought, a founder is hard.
00:34:00:18 - 00:34:01:16
You know, when I was in PayPal,
00:34:01:16 - 00:34:04:04
we had three near-death experiences
in the time that I was there.
00:34:04:18 - 00:34:06:06
You know,
the fraudsters are trying to kill us.
00:34:06:06 - 00:34:09:03
We didn't have a business model initially.
Then eBay was trying to kill.
00:34:09:03 - 00:34:10:04
I mean, it's difficult.
00:34:10:04 - 00:34:13:17
And, you know, you read these newspaper
articles both to Palo Alto
00:34:13:17 - 00:34:16:26
and they were making fun of us thinking
that we were, you know, delusional.
00:34:17:19 - 00:34:18:13
And you need
00:34:18:13 - 00:34:21:17
you need to be able to shed those things
and just let it roll off your back.
00:34:22:15 - 00:34:26:16
The thing I look for when I when I meet
a company is understanding the why.
00:34:26:16 - 00:34:27:22
We've spoken about that.
00:34:27:22 - 00:34:29:05
What gave rise to this idea?
00:34:29:05 - 00:34:33:26
What was the eureka moment that had
you understand that this is an opportunity
00:34:34:13 - 00:34:38:13
and it's fascinating to understand
the origin story for a company and it says
00:34:38:14 - 00:34:42:03
so much about the depth of understanding
that somebody has about a particular field
00:34:42:24 - 00:34:44:27
and their understanding
of what it takes to solve it,
00:34:44:27 - 00:34:48:16
not just at a first order level,
but all all the way down.
00:34:48:16 - 00:34:51:10
Because if there were a good solution,
they would probably have picked it.
00:34:51:10 - 00:34:53:18
They wouldn't have dared
to build a company around it.
00:34:54:27 - 00:34:58:04
So off to the wiring, understand
what is your value proposition?
00:34:58:08 - 00:35:01:18
Explain to me why the product or idea
that you have is such
00:35:01:18 - 00:35:04:29
a compelling solution to the problem
that you've described.
00:35:05:02 - 00:35:08:12
And then I figure out much later about,
you know, can you turn it into business?
00:35:08:12 - 00:35:12:24
Because if you can deliver
incredible value to an acute problem
00:35:13:04 - 00:35:17:14
to a large audience, you've got
all the ingredients you need to get going.
00:35:17:14 - 00:35:20:23
I as a follow on to that role off,
have a slightly selfish question,
00:35:20:23 - 00:35:24:01
which is every time we make a seed
investment, I feel like have a sort of
00:35:24:01 - 00:35:27:01
minor existential crisis
of there's a huge information gap.
00:35:27:01 - 00:35:28:13
We don't know how the market's evolving.
00:35:28:13 - 00:35:31:22
We don't have enough information,
as you said, rally revenue, etc..
00:35:32:08 - 00:35:35:28
When when you look back
at the moment of decision
00:35:35:28 - 00:35:39:27
making over your 18 years at Sequoia
or that the unities
00:35:39:27 - 00:35:43:04
and 23 armies and scrums and YouTubes
as well as the ones that didn't work,
00:35:43:28 - 00:35:48:14
was there a large variance
between how confident you felt
00:35:48:19 - 00:35:51:27
at the time of investment as to, yes,
we should do this?
00:35:52:08 - 00:35:53:19
That's a really interesting question.
00:35:54:20 - 00:35:54:28
I think
00:35:54:28 - 00:35:57:28
you get better over time
and your judgment clearly improves.
00:35:57:28 - 00:35:59:22
I think clearly if I look back
00:35:59:22 - 00:36:02:21
to the early part of my career,
I was confident of decisions that
00:36:03:14 - 00:36:05:27
there was things
that I should have learned.
00:36:05:27 - 00:36:08:00
You know, the part of the analogy I gave
people is
00:36:08:00 - 00:36:10:12
chess players can be world
class at the age of 18.
00:36:10:16 - 00:36:12:18
Founders can be a world
class of age of 18.
00:36:13:10 - 00:36:17:20
Surgeons are not because surgeons
need a decade or two of experience,
00:36:17:20 - 00:36:21:01
and they probably can really good by
the time they're 40, not when they're 20.
00:36:21:15 - 00:36:22:22
And I feel there's something similar
00:36:22:22 - 00:36:26:08
about investing where you gain experience
at a time you see
00:36:26:26 - 00:36:30:08
you see examples of things and it's
it never repeats precisely.
00:36:30:24 - 00:36:33:27
But you draw from those experience
to improve your judgment over time.
00:36:33:27 - 00:36:36:21
And as you improve your judgment,
your confidence improves.
00:36:37:04 - 00:36:40:15
But I still say you need to be there
because there are so many unknowns
00:36:40:15 - 00:36:42:13
at the point
that you intersect with the company.
00:36:42:13 - 00:36:45:05
I mean, just last year,
I made a seed investment with,
00:36:45:05 - 00:36:47:17
you know, before the company's formation
documents were ready
00:36:48:01 - 00:36:50:16
because the person described
an idea and I loved it.
00:36:50:16 - 00:36:52:18
I just fell in love with the idea.
00:36:52:18 - 00:36:55:23
And part of what I look for is, can I can
I get rid of the idea?
00:36:55:28 - 00:36:57:00
If the next day I struggle
00:36:57:00 - 00:36:59:06
to remember the meeting,
then it's probably not a good sign.
00:36:59:06 - 00:37:01:10
In fact, I just can't let go of the idea.
00:37:01:10 - 00:37:04:28
If I want to tell people compulsively
about this wonderful idea I just heard.
00:37:05:05 - 00:37:07:29
That to me is a great sign of something
that I want to be involved with.
00:37:08:14 - 00:37:11:16
We have felt also listening
and I'm wondering if it's feel.
00:37:11:16 - 00:37:14:06
But I won't I won't put you on the spot
00:37:14:23 - 00:37:17:07
then maybe we've got lots of questions
coming through.
00:37:17:07 - 00:37:19:17
So I think I'll turn to questions
in four or 5 minutes,
00:37:20:22 - 00:37:22:00
the maybe
00:37:22:00 - 00:37:24:24
two to think about
00:37:24:24 - 00:37:28:07
the intersection of music and tech
streaming
00:37:28:07 - 00:37:31:00
is something that we're seeing
lots of early stage companies
00:37:32:02 - 00:37:33:18
plan towards.
00:37:33:18 - 00:37:38:04
Do you think that that could change
the music landscape, like how people
00:37:38:04 - 00:37:42:06
consume music content and therefore
how artists produce that content?
00:37:42:06 - 00:37:44:22
Is that something
that you're thinking about? Lots.
00:37:45:01 - 00:37:48:29
I really hope we don't get to a place
where people are creating
00:37:50:02 - 00:37:51:16
upside down.
00:37:51:16 - 00:37:53:09
I the
00:37:54:07 - 00:37:56:16
the window in is the
00:37:56:16 - 00:37:59:14
the the instigation
that's that's almost like you
00:38:01:02 - 00:38:04:11
you read about in a sees
00:38:04:13 - 00:38:08:13
and suddenly want to go and figure out
how it's be crypto or an NFT
00:38:09:02 - 00:38:15:05
it's not about chasing the success
and I, I would hope
00:38:15:05 - 00:38:20:03
that even in the developments in streaming
and the idea that we're having
00:38:21:03 - 00:38:22:23
an amazing amount
00:38:22:23 - 00:38:25:20
of us added to of so access to
00:38:26:23 - 00:38:30:00
creativity isn't going to mean
that people are trying to kind of
00:38:31:15 - 00:38:33:00
hard wired into that system
00:38:33:00 - 00:38:37:23
and find a way to maximize the output.
00:38:37:23 - 00:38:40:12
No, I think I think actually
what we're seeing
00:38:41:02 - 00:38:44:26
is a lot of noise up
here is about headlines, about things
00:38:44:26 - 00:38:48:27
and all those headlines of instead
an agency that is trying to tell a story
00:38:49:05 - 00:38:52:14
and shed some light on something
that's very not going very well.
00:38:52:26 - 00:38:55:04
What's going on underneath all of that,
00:38:55:21 - 00:38:59:21
I think, is a retreat to the more real.
00:39:01:07 - 00:39:03:04
I think that what we're seeing
00:39:03:04 - 00:39:05:23
with certain artists
00:39:06:05 - 00:39:09:29
in music
is, is that they're finding a journey
00:39:09:29 - 00:39:13:03
in which to be the most authentic
and honest version of themselves.
00:39:13:23 - 00:39:18:12
And because of the way
in which access is so universal. Now,
00:39:19:21 - 00:39:21:24
people can people can touch that.
00:39:23:08 - 00:39:27:15
We're not kind of in the era of costumes
and presents.
00:39:27:29 - 00:39:29:11
It's like
00:39:30:13 - 00:39:32:27
you're kind of exposed
for the reality of who you are. So.
00:39:33:00 - 00:39:36:14
So I was saying the thing
to a musician right now wouldn't
00:39:36:14 - 00:39:41:00
be like trying to second guess what
the next tech development is not like.
00:39:41:00 - 00:39:43:09
Go and think about your algorithm.
00:39:43:09 - 00:39:47:04
I'd say go and sit down
with a guitar or piano
00:39:47:16 - 00:39:49:19
and go and write the best song your life.
00:39:50:05 - 00:39:53:16
And luckily, more people around the world
in 2021
00:39:53:16 - 00:39:57:12
will be able to hear that
in a short amount time than ever before.
00:39:58:03 - 00:39:58:20
But if you
00:39:58:20 - 00:40:01:17
haven't got anything to stop that,
if there's nothing real at the beginning,
00:40:02:12 - 00:40:04:13
then you're here to take on Smart.
00:40:04:17 - 00:40:06:01
And we're seeing a lot of that.
00:40:06:01 - 00:40:10:11
And it makes up a lot of so fluff
and noise in that higher level,
00:40:11:00 - 00:40:13:04
but there's still career losses to come
00:40:13:23 - 00:40:16:11
and they're
the ones that we're focusing on.
00:40:16:11 - 00:40:21:12
So what their value proposition is,
what their internal why is as an artist
00:40:22:25 - 00:40:26:10
and technology can amplify things
incredibly effectively.
00:40:26:10 - 00:40:26:24
What now?
00:40:26:24 - 00:40:30:18
I just wouldn't I would never go
through technology like that.
00:40:30:24 - 00:40:34:05
The word authenticity came to mind,
as you were saying that, because that's
00:40:34:12 - 00:40:36:09
what we look for in entrepreneurs as well.
00:40:36:09 - 00:40:37:27
It's that authentic connection
00:40:37:27 - 00:40:40:14
between the entrepreneur
and the problem that they're solving.
00:40:40:22 - 00:40:41:28
Yeah. Is that how.
00:40:41:28 - 00:40:45:14
Do you how
there's a question on that from from Raj
00:40:45:14 - 00:40:49:27
and the audience roll off
how do you test for authenticity.
00:40:49:27 - 00:40:52:27
You're asked to pose some questions
and you try to understand the motivations.
00:40:53:13 - 00:40:54:13
So part of the questions
00:40:54:13 - 00:40:57:09
are to understand how deep the understand
the problem at hand,
00:40:58:07 - 00:41:01:12
whether they're trying to build a company
for the sake of building a company
00:41:01:12 - 00:41:02:22
that doesn't work.
00:41:02:22 - 00:41:04:12
I don't think
you can become a great artist
00:41:04:12 - 00:41:05:19
because you want to be a great artist.
00:41:05:19 - 00:41:07:26
You become a great artist
because you feel something
00:41:07:26 - 00:41:11:10
deep and you've got talent and passion
and you can't bottle it.
00:41:11:25 - 00:41:13:25
You can't you can't force it out.
00:41:13:25 - 00:41:15:14
You're trying to restrain it almost.
00:41:15:14 - 00:41:18:07
You know, one of the quotes
we have as a business is best
00:41:19:06 - 00:41:21:16
trying to hang on to thoroughbreds
than pushing mules.
00:41:22:04 - 00:41:24:06
And you want to
you want to get that person
00:41:24:06 - 00:41:27:15
who just has that authentic energy
and truly wants to solve the problem.
00:41:27:15 - 00:41:28:10
And that really can help.
00:41:28:10 - 00:41:30:26
But bigger business
they're going to build.
00:41:31:00 - 00:41:33:26
In my career, I have not come across
entrepreneurs who walk in
00:41:33:26 - 00:41:36:15
and say they want to get rich
or they want to build a big business.
00:41:36:27 - 00:41:39:26
It starts with the idea,
the problem, the customer.
00:41:39:26 - 00:41:42:05
They're trying to serve the business
00:41:42:27 - 00:41:47:20
size as a consequence.
00:41:47:20 - 00:41:54:11
And now turning over to Q&A, David.
00:41:54:26 - 00:41:58:24
And so yeah, The Guardian launched
their venture arm is now doing exciting.
00:41:58:25 - 00:42:00:20
You think so, David?
Why don't you kick off?
00:42:00:20 - 00:42:01:06
Thank you.
00:42:01:06 - 00:42:05:04
What an amazing conversation with 2 to 2
human beings who kind of get it.
00:42:05:04 - 00:42:07:10
And it's lovely to hear.
00:42:07:10 - 00:42:09:16
I suppose I have multiple questions,
I think.
00:42:09:16 - 00:42:13:13
I'm sorry to say that one of them
probably is related to NFT. And.
00:42:13:25 - 00:42:16:13
Just trying to see whether your two brains
could pick
00:42:16:13 - 00:42:20:10
through the reality
of whether you think this is real.
00:42:20:10 - 00:42:21:01
I do think.
00:42:21:01 - 00:42:24:13
Perhaps from an artist's
point of view that if you see
00:42:25:01 - 00:42:28:18
some of the positive news
written around those sorts of currencies,
00:42:28:18 - 00:42:33:14
is it possible for individuals
now to build deeper, more immersive
00:42:33:26 - 00:42:38:08
relationships with their communities
and find a currency that is so dependent
00:42:38:08 - 00:42:41:12
on the quality of their output
than the dependency of an.
00:42:41:12 - 00:42:43:09
Algorithm as a platform.
00:42:43:09 - 00:42:46:15
And I wondered whether you felt
that there was some good
00:42:46:20 - 00:42:50:11
that could come from these currencies
or whether you think it's just.
00:42:50:11 - 00:42:50:27
Like.
00:42:51:12 - 00:42:54:02
I've been on a bit of a crash course
for the last,
00:42:54:19 - 00:42:58:25
I think as many of us have, but the last
sort of four or five weeks I live with
00:42:59:29 - 00:43:02:26
a couple of friends and one of them
00:43:03:26 - 00:43:06:09
owns a company called Neon Gold
or Selected Label,
00:43:07:08 - 00:43:10:21
and he's gone deep into the NFT space
and is up all night on clubhouse
00:43:10:21 - 00:43:15:05
and I managed to get like a half an hour
coffee so digestion in the morning.
00:43:15:21 - 00:43:19:28
And where I sit on it now is, is yes,
00:43:19:28 - 00:43:24:13
I do really like the idea
that there's a level component to it.
00:43:24:13 - 00:43:29:00
There's a, you know, I'm
kind of pretty socialistic in my thinking
00:43:29:00 - 00:43:33:13
and I like the idea that there can be
a dispersal rather than this algorithmic
00:43:33:13 - 00:43:38:13
let's celebrate the kind of the queen
bee type mentality I love.
00:43:38:13 - 00:43:41:03
That obviously means
very much on that wavelength.
00:43:42:04 - 00:43:47:03
I also think that the principle of an
ANC is
00:43:47:20 - 00:43:50:05
is kind of is kind of fun.
00:43:50:05 - 00:43:50:24
I don't know I don't know
00:43:50:24 - 00:43:53:22
whether I buy in to the amount
in which people are spending around.
00:43:53:28 - 00:43:58:18
I think I think that the premise
that something can be worth something
00:43:58:18 - 00:44:01:26
just because someone ascribes
value to it, I think is actually
00:44:03:03 - 00:44:03:29
pretty righteous.
00:44:03:29 - 00:44:05:29
That is all right.
00:44:05:29 - 00:44:09:14
If you look at kind of poetry and songs
00:44:09:25 - 00:44:11:25
over the years
00:44:13:22 - 00:44:16:28
now, the three words Let It Be,
00:44:16:28 - 00:44:18:13
that's like
00:44:19:09 - 00:44:22:06
that means so much
to so many millions of people.
00:44:22:06 - 00:44:28:06
And has generated so much value,
both economic and otherwise.
00:44:28:23 - 00:44:31:09
But at the end of the day, you know,
you could just say, well,
00:44:31:09 - 00:44:36:12
it's the same as just
that I'm not paying £3 million for a JPEG.
00:44:36:12 - 00:44:39:01
And it's like,
I'm not doing that with three words.
00:44:39:01 - 00:44:40:27
Let it be like,
what's the big deal with that?
00:44:40:27 - 00:44:41:28
But it wasn't that.
00:44:41:28 - 00:44:44:26
It was the intention behind it
and people got it.
00:44:45:11 - 00:44:47:25
If they didn't get it,
they wouldn't have cared.
00:44:47:25 - 00:44:49:25
And I guarantee you,
the tens of thousand songs
00:44:49:25 - 00:44:52:18
go out every day
and people don't react to them.
00:44:52:28 - 00:44:55:01
So it's not that straightforward
to do this stuff.
00:44:55:01 - 00:44:56:25
And I think that will play out.
00:44:56:25 - 00:44:57:04
Done.
00:44:57:04 - 00:45:00:01
And now Young six doing that,
00:45:01:12 - 00:45:03:18
it might seem obvious to other people
00:45:03:18 - 00:45:06:19
how to like cheat that system,
but I actually think
00:45:06:19 - 00:45:09:07
there's something more going on
and it's probably going to be around for
00:45:09:29 - 00:45:12:08
at least the remainder of this year.
00:45:12:08 - 00:45:13:15
It's not it's not beyond.
00:45:13:15 - 00:45:16:26
What about you on NFT?
00:45:16:26 - 00:45:21:01
I'm scratching my head around nfts
because to some extent it feels like DRM
00:45:21:09 - 00:45:25:06
finally, but works.
00:45:25:06 - 00:45:26:25
What I'm probably more excited about
00:45:26:25 - 00:45:30:15
is the idea that you can build
better tools for creators in general,
00:45:30:23 - 00:45:36:11
and that's part of the reason
Square acquired Tidal recently.
00:45:36:11 - 00:45:38:18
I don't know
if you saw that announcement and
00:45:39:18 - 00:45:41:29
I didn't know
exactly how much NFT is or other things
00:45:42:03 - 00:45:44:12
form part
of what will eventually build here.
00:45:44:12 - 00:45:48:08
But this idea that you can build far
better tools for creators than exist today
00:45:48:12 - 00:45:49:28
and you get rid of the
00:45:49:28 - 00:45:53:29
the phenomenon of yesteryear with
middlemen controlling the distribution
00:45:53:29 - 00:45:55:24
and the selection that we all benefit
from.
00:45:55:24 - 00:45:58:05
And today,
that's algorithmic. What is the future?
00:45:58:06 - 00:46:03:18
The future has to be different to help
connect fans with artists they love.
00:46:03:18 - 00:46:06:26
And I think what I'm excited about
with crypto in general has kind of changed
00:46:06:26 - 00:46:11:07
the way that the economics flow because
ad supported business models have meant
00:46:11:07 - 00:46:16:02
that we are the product by definition,
and you see the wave of
00:46:16:28 - 00:46:19:25
change against that,
that people don't want to be the product
00:46:20:10 - 00:46:23:28
and the intrusion that it presents
to our personal lives with all information
00:46:23:28 - 00:46:27:19
being sold
and bartered is people resenting that.
00:46:27:28 - 00:46:30:19
So I'm really enthusiastic
about maybe nfts
00:46:30:19 - 00:46:34:08
or maybe other forms of cryptocurrency
enabling artists to get paid
00:46:34:08 - 00:46:37:04
for their work
in a way that just is far more authentic.
00:46:37:27 - 00:46:38:26
And, you know,
00:46:40:02 - 00:46:41:10
that's all I have to say.
00:46:41:10 - 00:46:43:18
David Thank you, Paul, nice to see you.
00:46:44:18 - 00:46:46:21
Hi. I'm just interested to.
00:46:46:22 - 00:46:49:13
Hear what the panel have to say about.
00:46:50:03 - 00:46:52:06
The evolution of.
00:46:52:06 - 00:46:54:25
The organization for early stage
companies.
00:46:55:17 - 00:46:56:14
A lot of people talking.
00:46:56:14 - 00:46:58:16
About staying fully distributed.
00:46:58:29 - 00:47:03:15
Other companies are saying perhaps hybrid
solutions are going to be the way to go.
00:47:04:19 - 00:47:07:24
My concern is that I think that being.
00:47:07:24 - 00:47:11:19
Distributed works quite well for people
who are further on in their careers.
00:47:12:04 - 00:47:13:01
People have.
00:47:13:01 - 00:47:14:24
Families and kids, great to be at home.
00:47:14:24 - 00:47:17:04
But if you're early in your. Career,
if your young is single.
00:47:17:04 - 00:47:19:28
Perhaps you're going to benefit more.
00:47:19:28 - 00:47:24:13
From perhaps being in the office
from an emotional point of view, from a
00:47:25:21 - 00:47:27:19
mentoring point of view.
00:47:27:19 - 00:47:30:25
These kind of serendipitous conversations
that in fact, in real life
00:47:30:27 - 00:47:32:12
you talked about in.
00:47:32:12 - 00:47:35:06
What one should be looking for early in.
00:47:35:06 - 00:47:40:16
Your careers, you get those face to face
in person, not necessarily so much.
00:47:40:28 - 00:47:42:21
If you're sitting at home
looking at a screen.
00:47:42:21 - 00:47:46:00
So how do you think we can square
this sort of desire.
00:47:46:00 - 00:47:49:18
To be to stay distributed. Together with
00:47:50:22 - 00:47:53:28
having the benefits of of being in person.
00:47:54:11 - 00:47:56:00
As as someone sat in the office?
00:47:56:00 - 00:47:57:17
Paul I love that question.
00:47:57:17 - 00:47:59:18
Paul co-founded Indeed.com.
00:48:00:02 - 00:48:02:27
I agree with you
on the need for human connection.
00:48:03:13 - 00:48:07:18
All the surveys I've seen at our own
company suggest that there is a minority
00:48:07:18 - 00:48:12:05
of maybe 15 to 20% of people
who truly want to stay remote.
00:48:12:05 - 00:48:14:20
But the vast majority of people
want to be back in the office
00:48:15:13 - 00:48:18:13
or in a hybrid fashion
where they maybe have the flexibility
00:48:18:13 - 00:48:21:00
to spend a day, a week doing
00:48:21:00 - 00:48:23:29
work from home, an ability to focus
and not be distracted
00:48:23:29 - 00:48:25:09
with too many meetings at the office.
00:48:25:09 - 00:48:27:14
And I think that's the future.
00:48:29:00 - 00:48:32:24
Often companies that are distributed
still have pockets of excellence.
00:48:32:24 - 00:48:33:20
So unity,
00:48:33:20 - 00:48:37:16
where we got a hold of the company in 2009
when there were 30 people in Copenhagen,
00:48:37:29 - 00:48:41:13
they were a global organization
from the get go
00:48:41:17 - 00:48:44:06
and they've developed into offices
in over a dozen countries.
00:48:44:19 - 00:48:48:14
But where those offices reside,
they're often able to concentrate talent.
00:48:48:14 - 00:48:52:09
And so people can go to an office
in Montreal or in Copenhagen
00:48:52:09 - 00:48:56:08
or in San Francisco or in Singapore
and meet with other like minded people.
00:48:56:08 - 00:48:58:00
And some people have been remote
00:48:58:00 - 00:49:00:18
completely from the get
go at that company as well.
00:49:01:05 - 00:49:03:19
So I think we'll end up with that
kind of a hybrid solution.
00:49:03:19 - 00:49:06:15
But I think the idea that all of us
are going to be on our own
00:49:06:26 - 00:49:10:09
working from home or living in the office,
as I like to say, indefinitely,
00:49:10:09 - 00:49:12:01
I just don't think that's the future.
00:49:12:01 - 00:49:14:12
We're a social species by definition.
00:49:15:14 - 00:49:17:04
That's my prediction.
00:49:17:04 - 00:49:19:08
That will be that will be music to Brent's
ears right off.
00:49:19:20 - 00:49:22:27
Our own experience,
when you agree with the with the auspices,
00:49:22:27 - 00:49:25:25
and we actually ask the staff
kind of what they want.
00:49:27:10 - 00:49:29:03
And we've got two locations
00:49:29:03 - 00:49:32:03
in London and Nashville in Austin,
00:49:32:03 - 00:49:36:16
and 75% of people said they want to spend
to a hybrid, similar to what Rolf
00:49:36:16 - 00:49:40:10
just said, with a few people saying,
want to get to work every day, which we
00:49:41:10 - 00:49:43:09
can understand
because their living situation
00:49:43:09 - 00:49:45:17
might be such
that they actually want to work remotely.
00:49:46:11 - 00:49:48:18
And some people want to be remote
all the time, which happens to be
00:49:48:18 - 00:49:51:06
the people
with the best working situations.
00:49:52:09 - 00:49:55:16
So I do think that our plan
and a lot of the projects
00:49:55:16 - 00:49:57:21
that we're working on that involve
making mixed use
00:49:58:15 - 00:50:03:08
office staff next to the venues that we're
building assumes that there's always
00:50:03:08 - 00:50:07:00
going to be a role for collaboration
between people, I think is critical.
00:50:07:04 - 00:50:10:02
And then also the kind of
after work element,
00:50:10:24 - 00:50:12:10
which is the kind of
00:50:12:10 - 00:50:15:26
the social work component I think
is where people form connections and trust
00:50:15:26 - 00:50:20:04
that's critical to these businesses
actually having some sort of mesh
00:50:20:08 - 00:50:23:16
issue and part beyond
that's functional for carers.
00:50:23:16 - 00:50:26:01
Co-Founder of Brite Care,
which is our first product
00:50:26:01 - 00:50:29:05
as a bioactive cream
to help women with the pain of of UTIs.
00:50:29:05 - 00:50:30:22
So over to you.
00:50:30:22 - 00:50:32:08
Yeah I think my. Question is.
00:50:32:08 - 00:50:32:22
A bit more.
00:50:32:22 - 00:50:37:01
General and I think I really laughed
like I'm also you're
00:50:37:01 - 00:50:38:09
in your conversation about.
00:50:38:09 - 00:50:40:15
That kind of like enjoying the journey and
00:50:41:20 - 00:50:43:01
and and
00:50:43:01 - 00:50:46:06
yeah and also, you know, celebrating
like feathers in the nest.
00:50:46:06 - 00:50:48:11
And so I think. I would be more generally.
00:50:48:11 - 00:50:52:06
Interested along now, all these journeys
and all these different kind of.
00:50:52:17 - 00:50:56:09
Lifetime projects you two have so far.
00:50:56:09 - 00:51:00:27
What is your your greatest learned lesson
that you couldn't, for.
00:51:00:27 - 00:51:02:21
Example, share with someone.
00:51:02:21 - 00:51:04:19
Like me who. Is quite early on in.
00:51:04:19 - 00:51:09:07
This journey and is now know starting
and the first company.
00:51:09:14 - 00:51:12:10
I think I'll just quickly say
00:51:12:10 - 00:51:15:29
what I've summed up to the team
to the same degree and saying this
00:51:15:29 - 00:51:19:11
this year is of course,
three things that I want the team
00:51:19:11 - 00:51:20:23
to focus on
00:51:22:17 - 00:51:25:01
so we can say these are learnings
of the last couple of years
00:51:25:01 - 00:51:29:00
and this has been kind of the biggest
learnings I've had as a C entrepreneur.
00:51:30:02 - 00:51:32:12
The company is now grown.
00:51:32:12 - 00:51:33:29
It's been worth over 100 million.
00:51:33:29 - 00:51:37:26
So I'm of at that stage
now where I'm starting to really look back
00:51:37:26 - 00:51:40:05
on what we've done right and wrong and
00:51:41:13 - 00:51:42:23
three things
00:51:43:27 - 00:51:46:05
being is, number one,
00:51:46:24 - 00:51:47:08
burn out.
00:51:47:08 - 00:51:48:05
It's not cool
00:51:48:05 - 00:51:51:27
so that I just just making sure that that
that encouragement people as you build
00:51:51:27 - 00:51:55:13
your team to not try and impress you
00:51:55:17 - 00:52:00:01
or other people in the company by staying
the extra hour without any extra shift.
00:52:00:02 - 00:52:01:21
And I think those days are done.
00:52:01:21 - 00:52:05:16
I think you have to be able
to find a way to balance being intense
00:52:05:20 - 00:52:09:09
and having productive output
with having an actual life.
00:52:09:24 - 00:52:12:22
If you if you don't want something,
if you don't want people blowing up
00:52:12:22 - 00:52:15:08
at the wrong moments
and the wrong presentation.
00:52:15:08 - 00:52:16:17
So number one is wellbeing.
00:52:16:17 - 00:52:18:17
Number two is decisiveness.
00:52:18:17 - 00:52:21:13
I think decisiveness is why
we've come out stronger from the pandemic
00:52:21:17 - 00:52:23:25
than a lot of other people
in our industry.
00:52:23:25 - 00:52:27:25
And it's really important to be able
to get all the information you need,
00:52:28:10 - 00:52:31:28
be able to make a decision and empower
others within your organizations
00:52:32:03 - 00:52:33:02
to make a decision.
00:52:33:02 - 00:52:38:04
Now, even if that is your most junior
staff member, you need to be clear to them
00:52:38:04 - 00:52:42:08
what decisions they can make and
and encourage them to make that decision.
00:52:42:19 - 00:52:46:11
Because if they just sit back
kind of paralyzed, waiting to be told off
00:52:46:19 - 00:52:49:19
something, right or wrong,
you're never going to be able to grow.
00:52:49:19 - 00:52:52:11
So I think decisiveness is critical
within the company.
00:52:53:00 - 00:52:55:17
And the third one was patience.
00:52:55:21 - 00:52:58:02
That's the other
that's the other theme of our company
00:52:58:02 - 00:53:02:09
this year is being patient
to not try and get it all done at once
00:53:02:24 - 00:53:05:12
and that a lot
can happen in a year or two.
00:53:05:27 - 00:53:09:06
And you just sort of let it let it
naturally grow at the pace that it wants
00:53:09:08 - 00:53:10:29
grow at without forcing it so much
00:53:12:12 - 00:53:13:17
as a record executive or
00:53:13:17 - 00:53:16:28
doc base is so many years on and records.
00:53:17:10 - 00:53:19:24
And I've always admired him.
00:53:19:24 - 00:53:22:18
And he said to me once
when I was struggling to get a certain
00:53:22:18 - 00:53:24:28
artist career off the ground, and he says,
00:53:25:27 - 00:53:28:06
Stop swimming upstream,
00:53:28:06 - 00:53:29:11
find your downstream.
00:53:29:11 - 00:53:31:08
Every now
and then you need to swim upstream.
00:53:31:08 - 00:53:33:09
That's
what the downstream is and go with it.
00:53:33:15 - 00:53:35:12
And then you're going to
still be fighting.
00:53:35:12 - 00:53:37:03
I'm not going to wear yourself out.
00:53:37:03 - 00:53:40:00
So the kind of the patients spats
where things really
00:53:41:01 - 00:53:45:24
came in, those would be my three one will
00:53:47:01 - 00:53:49:06
nanny. Welcome back. Hi.
00:53:49:06 - 00:53:50:21
Thank you for having me back.
00:53:50:21 - 00:53:52:20
I know you what.
00:53:52:20 - 00:53:54:18
To say to visionaries.
00:53:54:18 - 00:53:56:28
So my question is actually for a so.
00:53:56:28 - 00:54:00:05
When you do early stage funding
and to some extent you're betting that
00:54:00:05 - 00:54:03:10
the company will anticipate and solve
not in need of today, but
00:54:03:10 - 00:54:06:13
a needs that is pressing
when the product is somewhat.
00:54:06:13 - 00:54:08:01
More mature.
00:54:08:01 - 00:54:10:07
So give or take three years from now.
00:54:10:13 - 00:54:13:15
While you have to bet on people
and it's a primary. Bed.
00:54:13:21 - 00:54:15:15
You have to remain a visionary too.
00:54:15:15 - 00:54:16:17
So with a visionary.
00:54:16:17 - 00:54:19:21
Head on, what do you anticipate
are the biggest problems three years
00:54:19:21 - 00:54:24:02
from now in both consumer and enterprise?
00:54:24:02 - 00:54:27:20
I'll give you 30 seconds to 10 seconds
to join it right off the cuff.
00:54:27:20 - 00:54:29:20
Question, Nelly,
I don't know if I'm going to share
00:54:29:20 - 00:54:35:19
my champagne with you next week.
00:54:35:19 - 00:54:40:02
Well, you know, the physicist
Niels Bohr said the future holds
00:54:41:00 - 00:54:42:28
predictions
very hard, especially about the future.
00:54:42:28 - 00:54:45:24
So I think for enterprises,
00:54:45:24 - 00:54:48:26
the biggest challenge
is going to be the shift to cloud.
00:54:49:01 - 00:54:52:29
We're still in the very early innings
of people moving their infrastructure
00:54:52:29 - 00:54:56:28
or from company
owned data centers to the cloud.
00:54:57:28 - 00:55:00:19
For us to live in Silicon Valley,
it feels like yesterday's news
00:55:00:19 - 00:55:02:06
because our companies
have already been doing it.
00:55:02:06 - 00:55:06:27
But it's a big wave that is still going
to roll over most of the world.
00:55:07:07 - 00:55:11:09
And coupled with that is how enterprises
are going to take advantage of data
00:55:11:19 - 00:55:14:17
and machine learning
and artificial intelligence to really make
00:55:14:17 - 00:55:19:02
their businesses systems of intelligence
rather than just systems of engagement.
00:55:19:02 - 00:55:21:06
So I think that's the biggest challenge
for enterprises.
00:55:21:06 - 00:55:24:11
And I think the availability
of data scientists and machine
00:55:24:11 - 00:55:27:25
learning specialists is very low
relative to the need.
00:55:28:07 - 00:55:29:27
And so that's going to be
a huge bottleneck.
00:55:29:27 - 00:55:33:00
So I think I'm very interested
in companies that really help improve
00:55:33:00 - 00:55:37:01
the productivity of the existing
engineering and data science teams,
00:55:37:01 - 00:55:40:20
because that is an incredible bottleneck
from a recruiting point of view
00:55:41:26 - 00:55:43:19
on consumer, I think
00:55:43:19 - 00:55:45:19
we're seeing a resurgence in consumer
00:55:46:08 - 00:55:50:03
and I think part of it is that
people are tired of the beer moths that
00:55:50:22 - 00:55:54:11
that control our lives, where the products
have become maybe a little bit stale.
00:55:54:26 - 00:55:58:22
We will have advertising based business
models where we feel are the product.
00:55:59:14 - 00:56:02:21
And for the first time in several years,
we're seeing people really experiment
00:56:02:21 - 00:56:03:15
with new ideas.
00:56:03:15 - 00:56:04:23
And so I think the opportunity
00:56:04:23 - 00:56:07:28
in some sense for consumer
is re-imagining media in particular.
00:56:08:21 - 00:56:10:29
I think commerce is obviously
on a very strong trajectory,
00:56:10:29 - 00:56:12:15
especially accelerated by COVID.
00:56:12:15 - 00:56:14:28
But I think media companies
are going to be reinvented
00:56:14:28 - 00:56:17:19
and you're going to see the emergence
of many more consumer facing
00:56:18:05 - 00:56:20:18
services
than you have in the last five years.
00:56:21:03 - 00:56:22:01
Stefan's question was
00:56:23:15 - 00:56:24:09
actually also to
00:56:24:09 - 00:56:28:01
you right off, but that may be something
that's been kitchen memos.
00:56:28:01 - 00:56:32:01
What what got you excited
first about about YouTube and Instagram
00:56:32:01 - 00:56:34:03
because we have conversations
and first minute
00:56:34:03 - 00:56:36:11
is that going to be an Instagram of music
one day but
00:56:38:07 - 00:56:39:16
over development.
00:56:39:16 - 00:56:42:24
So with YouTube,
the memo is actually available on the web
00:56:42:24 - 00:56:46:00
if you do a search YouTube investment
where you can go find it.
00:56:46:00 - 00:56:49:22
It was disclosed as part of the lawsuit
00:56:50:07 - 00:56:53:25
with Universal Music against YouTube.
00:56:54:02 - 00:56:56:05
So against Google YouTube.
So you can go find it.
00:56:56:05 - 00:56:57:12
So you can actually see what I wrote.
00:56:57:12 - 00:56:59:19
So I don't have to make stuff up.
00:56:59:19 - 00:57:01:03
And part of what you'll notice,
by the way,
00:57:01:03 - 00:57:04:05
is that at no point could we have imagined
that the company would be as big
00:57:04:05 - 00:57:05:10
as it turned out to be.
00:57:05:10 - 00:57:09:00
That's one of the lessons
for me about stop investing, solving
00:57:09:00 - 00:57:11:24
authentic problem,
and you will be surprised to the upside.
00:57:12:10 - 00:57:13:24
There was no notion at the time
00:57:13:24 - 00:57:16:11
that we thought that the company would be
as big as it turned out to be.
00:57:16:28 - 00:57:19:18
There was a quality of the product
experience that was unrivaled.
00:57:19:27 - 00:57:23:27
So if you just went and used the product,
it was so different from any of the
00:57:23:29 - 00:57:26:19
video services that existed at the time,
and they were many.
00:57:27:01 - 00:57:30:01
I mean, it's one of those classic things
where it's very easy to not invest
00:57:30:01 - 00:57:33:02
because you see a dozen competitors
and why does this one stand out?
00:57:33:14 - 00:57:38:18
But it's the same as somebody who plays
music and just plays a few notes of key.
00:57:39:01 - 00:57:41:27
You notice, and suddenly
it's not a beautiful piece of music.
00:57:41:27 - 00:57:45:12
Even if it's 99% accurate,
it just doesn't quite sound right.
00:57:45:12 - 00:57:47:20
And there was something
about how the founders, particularly
00:57:47:26 - 00:57:51:00
something that was truly beautiful
and truly easy to use.
00:57:51:24 - 00:57:54:11
I had videos
that had been stuck on my harddrive from
00:57:55:14 - 00:57:57:20
my honeymoon that I'd never shared
with anybody,
00:57:58:00 - 00:58:00:24
and I was effortlessly able to upload them
and share them with friends
00:58:00:24 - 00:58:01:26
and family around the world.
00:58:01:26 - 00:58:05:29
And that was an unlock I as a user
that just opened up my imagination
00:58:05:29 - 00:58:09:24
to what could happen with YouTube
as a user generated content site.
00:58:10:13 - 00:58:13:20
Instagram The Matrix was incredible.
00:58:13:20 - 00:58:16:27
It was the early days
of mobile users loved the product.
00:58:18:12 - 00:58:22:08
I know that Roll Off has got something
right after and I'm sure Ben does as well.
00:58:22:15 - 00:58:24:15
I just want to say a huge
thank you to you both.
00:58:25:20 - 00:58:26:17
Really? Yeah.
00:58:26:17 - 00:58:29:24
What a fascinating, wonderful way
to end a week here in London.
00:58:30:11 - 00:58:30:20
Roll off.
00:58:30:20 - 00:58:35:06
Enjoy your well, our break
and then real, real pleasure to talk.
00:58:35:06 - 00:58:37:18
And thanks again for Daniel
for making it happen.
00:58:38:01 - 00:58:40:12
But thank you to both and Spencer.
00:58:40:16 - 00:58:41:19
Thank you, Ben.
00:58:41:19 - 00:58:46:03
Yeah, there's a chance, but by the way.